Free natural gas arrangements?

[Silvercreek Farmer]

A question for the folks that get free natural gas as part of their drilling arrangements: What prevents you from hooking up a big NG generator and selling the current back to the utility 24/7? Or if the arrangement specifies "household use only" just power the entire house off of it (of course you would want a battery bank so you didn't have to listen to the generator run all the time). And would it be possible to compress the NG and power a car off of it? Or at least charge up a plug-in? Just how far can you take the term "Free"?

[Yvonne's hubby]

I have no contract for free gas... because I own the well and the mineral rights and all the plumbing that goes with it... its MY gas, and I do with it as I durn well please. Most of the folks I know who have access to free gas from a company have a set amount they can use each year which far exceeds normal household useage.

[Darren]

Some have unlimited gas. Some have a limitation in the contract and the gas is metered. If you have unlimited gas it will probably be for residential use only. I doubt you could start a large greenhouse operation or fire up a 200 MW combustion turbine, that's an exaggeration, and get away with it.

Compressing the gas for automotive use is doable. The well tenders monitor the wells at least monthly to change out charts. The output from the wells fluctuates over time. The tender knows much gas you're using. At some point if there's no meter because the contract says unlimited there will be one installed if you're hogging gas.

All wells aren't the same. Pressure and flow varies from well to well and over time as well. If the well is run wide open, water and sand fill the well up faster meaning a swab rig will be used more frequently. Sometimes the wells have to be shut in to build up pressure. Some wells need compressors to build enough pressure to feed the collection line.

Locally a sawmill has an NG fueled Caterpillar diesel generator set that ran off one well. The blade takes a 150 or 200hp electric motor. I doubt the well has enough pressure and flow the run the mill full time anymore.

Like anything else there's no one answer to your question. Some folks own the rights and have a well that was abandoned and never plugged. That's the situation for the farmer who converted his vehicles to NG.

[lemonthyme7]

Most that I know of have a set amount of gas you can use a year. For example my brother was using his to run his corn dryer and when he went over that amount he had to buy the extra or maybe they took it out of his royality checks but he did have an amount he couldn't go past before it cost him one way or the other. Normally what you get is more than enough for normal household use though.

[texican]

The reason (most) people with free gas don't run their ng gennies on the free gas is simple economics. A 'small' ng home sized genny starts around 4k (was looking at them last night, in the bathroom 'library' 'wish book' Northern Hydraulics). A good one will go 20K. And even the mongo good ones aren't designed for permanent usage... they all require complete shut down and all oil and filters changed, in less than a week. Oil/filters/down time really add up... and the gennies don't last forever.

Spend 20K on a genny, and 20, 30, 40$/week on filters and oil and other consumables, and it adds up... then in a year or two, your genny craters, and then your starting over...

Home compressed natural gas.... I haven't seen an inexpensive reliable system, on the open market.

I have unlimited free gas... and the plan is to get a large ng genny, but a battery bank to store excess energy, to supplement the solar panels...

[Darren]

Originally Posted by texican

The reason (most) people with free gas don't run their ng gennies on the free gas is simple economics. A 'small' ng home sized genny starts around 4k (was looking at them last night, in the bathroom 'library' 'wish book' Northern Hydraulics). A good one will go 20K. And even the mongo good ones aren't designed for permanent usage... they all require complete shut down and all oil and filters changed, in less than a week. Oil/filters/down time really add up... and the gennies don't last forever.

Spend 20K on a genny, and 20, 30, 40$/week on filters and oil and other consumables, and it adds up... then in a year or two, your genny craters, and then your starting over...

Home compressed natural gas.... I haven't seen an inexpensive reliable system, on the open market.

I have unlimited free gas... and the plan is to get a large ng genny, but a battery bank to store excess energy, to supplement the solar panels...

"Hawkpower generators provide a reliable continuous load-rated power source of electricity wherever and whenever electric service from either public or private utility is either unavailable or impractical."

Hawkpower Generators, Powered by Lister Petter and Volvo engines

Not sure what you mean by reliable and inexpensive but to compress natural gas to the pressure need for enough storage for a reasonable range, you need a multi-stage compressor. Here's one for about $5,000. You can also use a dive shop or other high pressure compressor.

[Old Vet]

Originally Posted by Darren

"Hawkpower generators provide a reliable continuous load-rated power source of electricity wherever and whenever electric service from either public or private utility is either unavailable or impractical."

Hawkpower Generators, Powered by Lister Petter and Volvo engines

Not sure what you mean by reliable and inexpensive but to compress natural gas to the pressure need for enough storage for a reasonable range, you need a multi-stage compressor. Here's one for about $5,000. You can also use a dive shop or other high pressure compressor.

You forget to read the fine print like: Hawkpower generator sets are available from a selection of air-cooled or water-cooled, naturally aspired or turbocharged diesel fuelled engines by Lister Petter, which can be supplied with a variety of optional accessories to suit your preferences and/or special applications.
I guess you could run a diesel engine on NG with some modification but the power is not the same. If i wanted to get a really good generator it would be a Caterpillar or a Mann and they are both diesel.

[Forerunner]

There is gas powered refrigeration, the hardware and mechanics of which seem to be pretty bulletproof. Rather than spin a genny, I'd be looking for everything else that could be done with the gas, first.
I'm thinking a big refrigerator, and maybe a couple larger chest freezers, for starts.

[Darren]

Originally Posted by Old Vet

You forget to read the fine print like: Hawkpower generator sets are available from a selection of air-cooled or water-cooled, naturally aspired or turbocharged diesel fuelled engines by Lister Petter, which can be supplied with a variety of optional accessories to suit your preferences and/or special applications.
I guess you could run a diesel engine on NG with some modification but the power is not the same. If i wanted to get a really good generator it would be a Caterpillar or a Mann and they are both diesel.

Sorry! The USA Hawkpower company is out of business. MidAtlantic Engine still sells the UK sourced Lister Petter powered natural gas fueled gensets up to 15KW. Ignore the hawkpower logo on the chart. They're built on order. Allow 30 to 45 days to get one from the UK. They do meet current EPA regs. And they are rated for prime use meaning continuous running.

Lister-Petter Hawkpower Gaseous Generator Sets

[texican]

Originally Posted by Darren

"Hawkpower generators provide a reliable continuous load-rated power source of electricity wherever and whenever electric service from either public or private utility is either unavailable or impractical."

Hawkpower Generators, Powered by Lister Petter and Volvo engines

Not sure what you mean by reliable and inexpensive but to compress natural gas to the pressure need for enough storage for a reasonable range, you need a multi-stage compressor. Here's one for about $5,000. You can also use a dive shop or other high pressure compressor.

Diesel engine, yes....... but you still have to shut them down and change oil and filters... and this is just the engine. Granted, from what I've 'read', Listers will run forever... generator head? that's a different story... moving parts wear out...

Originally Posted by Old Vet

You forget to read the fine print like: Hawkpower generator sets are available from a selection of air-cooled or water-cooled, naturally aspired or turbocharged diesel fuelled engines by Lister Petter, which can be supplied with a variety of optional accessories to suit your preferences and/or special applications.
I guess you could run a diesel engine on NG with some modification but the power is not the same. If i wanted to get a really good generator it would be a Caterpillar or a Mann and they are both diesel.

Yes...

Originally Posted by Forerunner

There is gas powered refrigeration, the hardware and mechanics of which seem to be pretty bulletproof. Rather than spin a genny, I'd be looking for everything else that could be done with the gas, first.
I'm thinking a big refrigerator, and maybe a couple larger chest freezers, for starts.

Had a Sibir fridge/freezer, lasted 14 years... I actually kept running it a year after I got on the grid. Instead of spending another 1300 on a tiny fridge, decided to go a/c so I could actually have ice whenever I wanted it. Still have gas lights, gas heat, and gas hot water...

Originally Posted by Darren

Sorry! The USA Hawkpower company is out of business. MidAtlantic Engine still sells the UK sourced Lister Petter powered natural gas fueled gensets up to 15KW. Ignore the hawkpower logo on the chart. They're built on order. Allow 30 to 45 days to get one from the UK. They do meet current EPA regs. And they are rated for prime use meaning continuous running.

Lister-Petter Hawkpower Gaseous Generator Sets

Again, I've read the diesel Listers last forever, but haven't seen any data about NG Lister running forever. Always leery when a website offers something, without a price.

I stand by my opinion, that running a natural gas generator, continuously, is expensive, and isn't a permanent solution. I'd like to see manuals for the NG Lister, and read a whole lot of reviews, before even forming an opinion on it.

I do have a military generator, MEP-002, rated to run continuously forever, but stop every 100 hours to check the oil. I'd go broke quickly running it full time.

[Darren]

Obviously you'd have to stop and change oil at some point. Listers aren't inexpensive, Neither is the price outragous for the longevity. It's not unusual to find Listers running with well over 30,000 hours without a rebuild.

The neighbor has a decades old Caterpillar genset that came from the factory equiped to run on NG. For well over a decade, the genset ran all of the electric motors in the sawmill. He still starts and runs the beast occasionally. I don;t know the rating but the blade has been run with a 200hp motor.

I have no doubt that if you needed to run a Lister continuously for a month for power, it would do it. I doubt a Generac would do the same. The heavier diesel block and bottom end makes the difference.

[texican]

I'll grant you the longevity on the diesel Listers... but, until yesterday, never even heard of a NG Lister (and have read quite a bit on the Lister sites... otterpower.com)

You, I, anyone... find one in the states, and I'll buy it! Seriously thought about getting a diesel Lister, but the idea of taking it apart and putting it back together (to check for casting errors) put a damper on my enthusiasm. Keep dreaming that I'll run up on one in someone's barn, and they want me to haul it off for them... Hey, a guy can dream! can't he?

[tinknal]

OK, just thinking out loud here, as I don't have a dog in the hunt, as no NG here but how about a battery/generator on demand type thing? Would it be feasible to have a generator that runs only to charge the batteries? If your heat, hot water, refrigeration, dryer, lights, AC (do they make NG air conditioners?) etc is NG I would imagine that your electricity needs would be quite low.

How long before before Texican invents a NG powered computer?

[artificer]

What I REALLY want to see is a NG powered fuel cell. NG in, DC out. Add an inverter to convert to AC, and you're golden. No moving parts, and if its a large stationary high temperature one, then no problems with catalyst fouling.

Failing that, there's a thread over on the microcogen site talking about a NG powered water cooled engine to provide both electricity and heat. I think it would be possible to take a listeroid engine, and replace the injector with a spark plug. Add a butterfly valve to control speed, and connect it to the governer. Vacuum draw off of the butterfly valve to control flow from the NG regulator. I know propane will not detonate in a diesel engine until the fuel ignites it. Is it the same with NG? If so, then you don't even have to change the compression ratio.

Texican, what you need to look for are the gas field engines. Some of them are set up to have oil checked with the engine running. Add a second oil filter with isolation valves, and you can change filters with the engine running. Add in a metered dosing pump for oil, and you can burn a small amount of crankcase oil continuously, with a matching supply of new oil. Never shut down for oil changes. If you're burning NG, then you don't have the "shut down and decabon the head" that you do with diesel fuel. I think the lister engines get a lot of hype that hasn't been fulfilled, at least as far as the listeroid engines go.

I agree with the idea that it probably doesn't make a lot of financial sense. You have to count your time as a second job. If you're retired, or want it as a hobby, thats a different story.

Just as an aside, I'm setting up a power generation unit for the farm. Cheap $200 6.5hp chinese clone of a honda GX200. It drives a Leeci Nevill 160amp alternator to charge some golf cart batteries. The batteries power a 2000watt pure sine wave inverter. The engine only needs to run with a heavy electrical load, or to charge the batteries. If I had free NG, I'd have several of these made up, or an upsized one to run the shop.

Michael

[texican]

Originally Posted by tinknal

OK, just thinking out loud here, as I don't have a dog in the hunt, as no NG here but how about a battery/generator on demand type thing? Would it be feasible to have a generator that runs only to charge the batteries? If your heat, hot water, refrigeration, dryer, lights, AC (do they make NG air conditioners?) etc is NG I would imagine that your electricity needs would be quite low.

How long before before Texican invents a NG powered computer?

When I was off grid, if I turned on my genny, it was to basically recharge the batteries. If you have solar, and are sized out for 3.5 days of no sun, on day 2, 2.5, you start looking at weather forecasts to see if it's going to keep raining, and cut back on your electric usage. When you get down to a certain point on your battery bank, you should stop using more, or you'll damage the cells. At that point, you use little to none, or fire up the genny for a tank of fuel. About the time my 12vdc genny seized up (those dang ol moving parts) I was ready to replace it with a new engine, and get the NG kit to modify it with... then I had the chance of hooking up to the grid, for about 1% of the original cost... so I got grid.

I have read? about some micro fuel cells to charge laptops... but the technology/availability is still in it's infancy. For a while, I thought long and hard about how to get my electronics to run off the free gas...

Originally Posted by artificer

What I REALLY want to see is a NG powered fuel cell. NG in, DC out. Add an inverter to convert to AC, and you're golden. No moving parts, and if its a large stationary high temperature one, then no problems with catalyst fouling.

Failing that, there's a thread over on the microcogen site talking about a NG powered water cooled engine to provide both electricity and heat. I think it would be possible to take a listeroid engine, and replace the injector with a spark plug. Add a butterfly valve to control speed, and connect it to the governer. Vacuum draw off of the butterfly valve to control flow from the NG regulator. I know propane will not detonate in a diesel engine until the fuel ignites it. Is it the same with NG? If so, then you don't even have to change the compression ratio.

Texican, what you need to look for are the gas field engines. Some of them are set up to have oil checked with the engine running. Add a second oil filter with isolation valves, and you can change filters with the engine running. Add in a metered dosing pump for oil, and you can burn a small amount of crankcase oil continuously, with a matching supply of new oil. Never shut down for oil changes. If you're burning NG, then you don't have the "shut down and decabon the head" that you do with diesel fuel. I think the lister engines get a lot of hype that hasn't been fulfilled, at least as far as the listeroid engines go.

I agree with the idea that it probably doesn't make a lot of financial sense. You have to count your time as a second job. If you're retired, or want it as a hobby, thats a different story.

Just as an aside, I'm setting up a power generation unit for the farm. Cheap $200 6.5hp chinese clone of a honda GX200. It drives a Leeci Nevill 160amp alternator to charge some golf cart batteries. The batteries power a 2000watt pure sine wave inverter. The engine only needs to run with a heavy electrical load, or to charge the batteries. If I had free NG, I'd have several of these made up, or an upsized one to run the shop.

Michael

I've had limited experience with the Honda clones, but do have to say, I'm hooked. I'd love to have a huge turnkey whole house ng/propane genny, but the >4K price ain't gonna happen for a while. Rebuilding a 12vdc genny would probably be closer to my budget. If the grid goes down for good, all the freezers except maybe one would be turned off, and everything inside canned. The kicker is always the longevity of the batteries. Rarely could I get more than three years of daily usage out of my 6v x 4 battery bank.

I swooned over the ng fuel cells... Coleman teased and teased about a portable home unit... I got on their waiting list, and waited and waited... then their fuel cell site sorta vanished... and I've yet to hear of another small fuel cell source.

Will check out microgen!

[Darren]

Texican, did you consider desulphating the batteries?