Poor land? What does it take to fix it?

[lexa]

I am curious and I have been checking out online listings for land in the area we are planing to live to see what I can expect price wise and to figure out what exactly I want to do, can do etc.
I came across this listing:
"Large Spring Fed Stocked Pond, Creeks, Horse Barn and 30 x 50 Metal Building, Nice Homesite w/ Well and Septic, Small 3 Room Restorable Cabin, Cleaning Station, Fenced and Crossed Fenced w/ Water Spigots in Place, Great for Horses, Borders National Forest"
The place is the right size, price and in right location.
I am nowhere near being able to buy anything, it will be couple years from now when we are done paying off student loans and saving up some money.
If I saw something like this when I was ready to buy I would be very interested, however, there are pictures like this one
that show severe errosion. There is no top soil just red clay.
So my question is What does it take to repair areas like this one? I know it cn be done, I just want to have a realistic expectations.
How much effort, technicues, tools, etc?
Again I am not buying

[lexa]

Here is another picture to show extent of errosion.

[foxtrapper]

The work depends on the damage and condition. Is it worthwhile? Generally not. But, it can be done.

Simple enough to calculate the amount of topsoil needed to bring it up to the level you envision. Then price it. Not the work, just the price of the soil itself. That's usually enough.

[luvrulz]

HA! Looks like some of my farm here in Ky. It takes lots of composting, manure and different things. You will need to seed heavily and work it for a couple years before you can expect much improvement. Kind of depends what you will put in those areas too. I have red clay like that up around my stock pond, where they built up the sides to hold water. It is holding well because of all the clay. We can't get grass to grow in that clay and it doesn't matter because of where it is. In the garden where we've added manure and all the other stuff, it looks great now after 10 yrs of additional stuff. There are still areas though that the grass seed just won't grow.... We keep trying to improve those areas...... Takes time and effort.

In certain areas, we've put in over 600 blueberry bushes into peat moss filled holes; and 4 acres of asparagus in where we had already improved the soil so there is income from the farm while we're working other areas; like where the house is and down by the pond, etc, etc, etc....

And by us, it's alot easier and cheaper to get manure (free) and composted leaves from the dump ($8 a ton) than to pay for the dump truck to bring out a couple loads of topsoil. We have a trailer to haul the other stuff....the fee for the dump truck makes it cost prohibitive......

[Plowpoint]

If you boil it all down, you really have two choices, you can either buy the place or not, and if you do, you have to decide what you are going to do with it once you have it.

That is pretty simple I know, but the mistake I see a lot of people making is buying a piece of property based on price and not really matching the homestead up with the ability of the land.

For example, where I live the soil is super acidic, a ph of around 5.2 with gravely loam. In my case it would make no sense to try to raise alfalfa hay that really requires a PH of 7. That is because it would take such a huge importation of lime to sweeten the soil to bring it to neutral that the cost would be too much. Instead I should grow crops conducive to the acidic soil that we have...broccoli for example, or potatoes.

Nature does not like bare feet and every type of soil practically, has something edible that grows in it. You need to really base your homestead around those edible crops in that type of soil. I think people really get into trouble when they try to base their homestead on an ideal based on magazines, other peoples homesteads or books. In trying to force their unique place to be like something else, they spend far too much effort and money and get frustrated in the process. Don't just celebrate your places uniqueness...capitalize on it!

It seems as if this place has plenty of water, that is a place to start capitalizing up. Micro-hydro power would limit your dependency on grid electricity reducing your overhead perhaps. Getting water to livestock could have some great returns making that more feasible. I don't know the answer but I encourage you to put some thought into what the place does have (wherever you finally homestead) and not what it does not have.

Here is one more tid-bit; the most challenging aspect of a homestead is also its greatest resource. It sounds counter-intuitive, but that is not the case. At my place for instance, sheep are unheard of, which makes raising them challenging. However because of the lack of sheep here, the market is wide open for me and I can market all that I raise.

Hope I have encouraged you...

[lexa]

Thanks.
I am not buying anything right now, just looking around at what is available and to figure out what I want, pros ad cons and leads to reaserch.
Like this farm has many things that appeal to me (I have not seen it in person, it might be different if I do).
It does have a potential, not the whole farm looks like the pictures shown, most of it is neglected pastures with lots of shrubs - perfect place for goat raising.

[heavyrebel]

I think I would read Forerunners composting thread...takes a few days, but beyond worthwhile.

We are starting to fix our land, here in south Florida. We have three acres of "raised land" by the previous owner. She used SAND fill for it, as most people do around here. Since most people sod, they don't care. We are having a wood clearing company dump one dump bed of chippings a day. Wood chips, soil and sod remnants. They supply a lot of sugar cane and banana farms and it should compost to soil in 8 months once spread. Plan to, over the next year(s), turn it into soil. Will take time and man power, but we are excited.

[haypoint]

All to often I read on HT aboutt someone that bought a field and wants a quick way to grow a forest, or someone bought a forest and wants an easy way to make it into a field. Sometimes buying what you want works best.

However, when looking for property, it pays to have an open mind.
30 years ago, I drove 300 miles to look at 80 acres that was said to be half fields and half wooded on a blacktop road for $12,000. I discovered that I had to travel on 7 miles of poor gravel road to get to the blacktop, the 80 acres was 80% brush, sandy soil and a water table 2 feet under the sand. I passed on that mess.
A few years later, a guy bought it, brought in an excavator and sold 100,000 yards of sand for a dollar a yard. Then built a log home next to the newly formed small lake. I didn't see the possibilities.
I was looking for an 80 acre place to build my homestead, but found a 160 acre place with a big barn and a 5 bedroom brick farmhouse. I changed my plans and bought it.

Be open with what you want to do, but don't buy the wrong property and expect to turn it into something else. IMHO

[Cliff]

For the land in your pics I would probably try spreading some compost, seeding, then unrolling round bales of hay over that to try and hold it all in place till the seedlings could root. It would obviously be an ongoing effort and you'd most likely have to do it more than once.

[geo in mi]

The eroded areas should be considered non-usable for many, many years until they get recovered with grass---and then, pastured only lightly or left in permanent pasture/hay.. The erosion probably existed prior to the last owners, but they sped up the process by allowing animals to denude the sparse grass and they cut it up with their hooves...(horses!) Slope erosion happens because the hillsides lose their cover and the rainwater carries it downhill, leaving only the sticky clay.......

So, if you buy the property, you have to adjust the price for the useless acreage and the cost to rehab it....PLUS, you have to take a serious look at the amount of topsoil in the level areas--just how deep is it, and if it will support the uses you have intended for it. Farming over a clay area, with shallow topsoil is tricky business. You have to use methods that keep adding organic matter to it--at a rate faster than your cropping takes it away, or you're in trouble. Another thing to consider is the plot shape and size--will it be large enough to do contour/strip cropping in order to permanently stop the erosion, or will neighbor's fences limit the contouring? The ad mentions fencing and cross fencing, which indicates that maybe no forethought was given to erosion problems.......thus you would have to pull them out and start over with contouring.....

Looks like you have the right approach, though. You are making a priority checklist and then using it whenever you look at a particular property. For a homestead, your soil will become your bank account, and that should be the first consideration. Then water, then the rest.......

Best of luck.

geo

[WJMartin]

My folks' homestead was cut with gullies 8' deep in places, 140 acres, they had a large horse facility move in on the next 160 acres and that was their saving grace. It took that facility 4 years but they filled in every gully and covered that place with the cleaning from the stalls and it turned into beautiful pasture. Of course, Dad could never identify all the new stuff growing out there, seeding and fertilizing all in one.

[dlskidmore]

Originally Posted by Cliff

For the land in your pics I would probably try spreading some compost, seeding, then unrolling round bales of hay over that to try and hold it all in place till the seedlings could root. It would obviously be an ongoing effort and you'd most likely have to do it more than once.

If you're going to buy that much hay, feed it to animals and get manure + meat out of the exchange. Keep moving the hay feeder to distribute the deposits of manure and fallen hay seed.

[Cliff]

Originally Posted by dlskidmore

If you're going to buy that much hay, feed it to animals and get manure + meat out of the exchange. Keep moving the hay feeder to distribute the deposits of manure and fallen hay seed.

I cut hay so usually have extra. We mulch gardens with old hay etc. On ground like that shown everything washes off, need something to hold manure, seed etc in place till roots can grab hold. Old hay is perfect for that. Plus it breaks down and feeds the soil.

[Harry Chickpea]

Kudzu

(Seriously, don't)

[lexa]

I went trough Forerunners thread some time ago and keep an eye on it. It is impressive what he is doing. On that scale does it mean that you have to have heavy machinery, there is no way around it right?

"So, if you buy the property, you have to adjust the price for the useless acreage and the cost to rehab it."
I found several listings for this land or at least for same address, that had same pictures, however there are different number of acres is listed, it varies between 35-40 acres. Could it be because of it? I am sorry for stupid question but how does one go about it? Put lower price in the offer? Or you mean reculculate of how much I am willing to pay for that land given that part of it is not usefull to me.
Right now there are horses there.

Ok. It does look worse than I thought after I looked it up of google maps. The pond is listed as between 1-5 acres, badly eroded areas are at least 3 times the size of the pond. http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&rl...ed=0CB0Q8gEwAA

[poorboy]

I had an eroding slope here from cattle taking a particular route along it..control & restoration was as simple as parking a few logs crosswise and piling brush to make the cattle take another route...time the pine log rotted ,and the brush, The grass had firmly re-established itself..

[Shrek]

I bought three acres of hardpan in the late 1980s that had been used to sell topsoil for way below average property value. After using some rock on the property for terracing and operating a green waste drop for a friend who was a landscaper in the area and a worm farm expansion on it, I eventually sold the property for a nice profit in 2001.

It can be done but it takes time.

[geo in mi]

Originally Posted by lexa

I went trough Forerunners thread some time ago and keep an eye on it. It is impressive what he is doing. On that scale does it mean that you have to have heavy machinery, there is no way around it right?

"So, if you buy the property, you have to adjust the price for the useless acreage and the cost to rehab it."
I found several listings for this land or at least for same address, that had same pictures, however there are different number of acres is listed, it varies between 35-40 acres. Could it be because of it? I am sorry for stupid question but how does one go about it? Put lower price in the offer? Or you mean reculculate of how much I am willing to pay for that land given that part of it is not usefull to me.
Right now there are horses there.

Ok. It does look worse than I thought after I looked it up of google maps. The pond is listed as between 1-5 acres, badly eroded areas are at least 3 times the size of the pond. 2505 kings creek newberry sc - Google Maps

35--40 acres is probably the property lines meander around so that a calculation of the acreage is too hard to do. So it is listed, perhaps, as 40 acres, more or less......

Yes recalculate your offer based on the amount that is useless to you, along with the rehab factor---which, after the Google look.......ummmmm. An awful lot of erosion there. My guess is that the topsoil is pretty thin, too. What are your use plans, and would they fit in?


Since you have the location, you can also use the USDA soil survey to hone in and find out more based on the soil type. Web Soil Survey - Home

geo

[mommathea]

Along the lines of Forerunners' Composting, look up "back to eden"
Very interesting read and movie.

[agmantoo]

I buy poor undesirable land and often resell it after improvements. IMO most folks do not have a lot of imagination and therefore they need to "see" the improvements to make a property attractive to purchase. On land that you are going to improve for farm use you must have access to water, rain or irrigation. Get the PH corrected and having a source of nutrients is a must. I find that it takes me 3 years to get the land producing. Here are a couple of pics of a 12 acre parcel that was considered waste land and was bought on the very cheap. This section had a gully from years if erosion. Both sides were so steep that I could not cross on any machine other than one on tracks and it would spin. I have not finished the project but I have it stabilized. The first pic is to give an idea of how deep the gash was. The second pic is the improvement. In the second pic the foreground area has been filled to a depth of ~6 ft. To date the improvement has added about $100/acre for me to do the work on the gully but I think it has added great value plus it has added a means to access the property on the off side of the gully.