Cistern vs. Well.... Pros and Cons

[WoodlandWoolens]

Yes we are still having water woes. We are still in the researching phase of our CO land buying, and thanks to all the helpful people here we've had a lot more to think about and thus have avoided many mistakes!

We have talked to the CO water commissioner and various Water rights people in CO, and have learned a lot.

We'd like to farm a small scale area and sell at local farmer's markets and such. BUT we are not likely to buy 35+ acres as per a domestic well (able to irrigate up to 1 acre) and instead only qualify fora household use well.

UNLESS we have a cistern and truck water in/and/or buy water rights saying we can irrigate land is what my understanding is.

But now I'm, thinking if we use a cistern to irrigate water that possibley it will be cheaper and better than buying and drilling and stuff with a well, that maybe we could also use a cistern for our familiy's water needs too.

Can anyone tell me their experiences with cisterns/trucking water in? Pros, cons?

Also we have not yet bought the land so that might be a huge factor in our choices as what to use.

If anyone can provide more info I'd be so greatful

[big rockpile]

Most Colorado I've seen falls short on Rain Fall plus it takes more water because of the soil.

If you can't draw out of a river I would go with a Well.

Ok reread.Trucking water in would be looking at alot more expense and problems.

big rockpile

[WoodlandWoolens]

Argh! This is just getting crazy frusterating! I just want to farm an acre or less of good organic food! We may even live in an rv for sometime, we are NOT using crazy amounts of water to do this! ---- this state!

Can anyone else chime in, if they have an opinion?

[Wanda]

Originally Posted by WoodlandWoolens

Argh! This is just getting crazy frusterating! I just want to farm an acre or less of good organic food! We may even live in an rv for sometime, we are NOT using crazy amounts of water to do this! ---- this state!

Can anyone else chime in, if they have an opinion?

If you are wanting to raise an acre of produce in a dry climate, you will be using a ''crazy amount'' of water. You must grasp the fact that some areas are not suitable for every use .

[tinknal]

Originally Posted by Wanda

If you are wanting to raise an acre of produce in a dry climate, you will be using a ''crazy amount'' of water. You must grasp the fact that some areas are not suitable for every use .

Conventional gardening yes, but there are many things one can do to reduce water use.

[ninny]

It's my understanding that in CO you do not have a right to the rainfall, so how are you going to fill your cistern without some kind of permit and can you even get a permit for that purpose? I think CO has the most restrictive water rights laws I've ever heard of...

.

[goatlady]

To do what you want to do, it would be best to look at other states. Colorado owns all the water, above and below ground and you surely do NOT want to be dependent on an outside supply for water to be trucked in to your property - NOT cost effective at all considering the rising gas prices for vehicles plus certain rising water itself costs. Colorado is NOT a truck farming friendly state on many levels otherwise there would already BE that sort of enterprise going on there. JMO from checking out that area myself many years ago. I went elsewhere in a heartbeat once I realized the severe water restrictions the state can and does impose on individuals.

[WoodlandWoolens]

But there ARE farms in CO! Lot's of them! Lot's of good organic ones too, how are they doing it?

We REALLY want to live in CO! We have family there and we have a very strong desire to live there.

I'm just wondering......

If we buy say, 5 acres or less. How on earth can we get permits to allow the irrigation of ONE acre or less of land? How is that NOT possible? Who else can I talk to about this? Should I just wait until I find my piece of land and then look into the water? I mean we wouldn't actually BUY it unless it was contingent on the well/water rights stuff.

What can I do! I'm determined!

[plowjockey]

Originally Posted by WoodlandWoolens

But there ARE farms in CO! Lot's of them! Lot's of good organic ones too, how are they doing it?

They are likey much larger than 5 acres and they likely have water rights.

All things are not equal, especially for newcomers. They may have been farming for 90 years, when there was no such thing, as a subdivision, in CO..

[ninny]

Originally Posted by WoodlandWoolens

But there ARE farms in CO! Lot's of them! Lot's of good organic ones too, how are they doing it?

We REALLY want to live in CO! We have family there and we have a very strong desire to live there.

I'm just wondering......

If we buy say, 5 acres or less. How on earth can we get permits to allow the irrigation of ONE acre or less of land? How is that NOT possible? Who else can I talk to about this? Should I just wait until I find my piece of land and then look into the water? I mean we wouldn't actually BUY it unless it was contingent on the well/water rights stuff.

What can I do! I'm determined!

They may have been "grandfathered in" on the water rights. Better do some serious indepth checking before making a commitment...

.

[WoodlandWoolens]

Yes I do understand that they may be "grandfathered in" or are perhaps large, but there are small farms out there too.

My understanding is that perhaps if we buy a small piece of land (under 5acres) and can only qualify for a household well, that perhaps we could "buy" water as in buy extra water from someone/something nearby? Or buy extra water and truck it in and put it in a cistern.

Is there ANY way to make this possible? I mean people grow things in Alaska, in urban "farm" plots the size of a small backyard, on concreate slabs, in planters.

or Tomatoes in FLORIDA! Where after reading "Tomatoland" tomatos can't grow in that kind of climate!

Or another way to get around the irrigation and greenhouse stuff, would be to grow indoors inside my home, but not sure I'll have enough space for the kind of farming I want to do.....

Too bad it's Sunday, I have to get back on the phone with some other Water People IN co!

Does this just sound like the craziest idea?

[Harry Chickpea]

You are going by gut feel and not using your brain. That is NOT meant as a put-down. We all do that from time to time.

I'm going to say flat out that if you continue down the road you are going, you are headed for disaster. I know you don't want to hear that, but when going into dicey situations, you HAVE to have a good understanding of all aspects of it, if you plan to get out alive.

First - gardening. I've said it before - you cannot grow food at the price you can buy it in season, even when you factor in profit margins for those in the delivery chain, and even WITHOUT any water costs. Agri-business is just that efficient. Trying to make a living off a market garden - organic or not - is chancy and you have to have a lot of factors working in your favor. There are plenty of good reasons to garden. Saving money is not one of them.

Second - water. Say you want to grow crops commercially on only 1/2 acre of land. Denver gets less than 16 inches of precipitation per year, much of that as snowfall. If we figure a growing season for one crop at 100 days, and want to have one inch of water per week to keep those plants healthy and robust, 100/7 = 14 inches of water. 1/2 acre is roughly a square 150' x 150'. expressing feet as inches: 150 x 12" = 1800". The area of 1/2 acre in inches is 1800 x 1800 or 3,240,000 square inches. 14 inches of water depth over that area makes 45,360,000 cubic inches. A gallon contains 231 cubic inches. You will need 196,363 gallons or 1,570,904 pounds of water for the garden. A medium size water tanker holds about 4,000 gallons. That means about 50 trips for the truck.

Now lets say that you do all sorts of tricks to keep water usage down and you only use 1/10th of that amount. I am being super-generous. That is STILL 5 truckloads of water to buy.

So your gardening costs are now:
Seeds
Soil prep (not cheap for organic)
Garden tools
Organic insecticide
Fencing
Water
Hoses and drip irrigators
Labor
Permit costs?
Amortization of land costs

You now have to figure in factors that might kill your crop:
Excess heat
Deer and antelope
Rabbits and groundhogs and skunks and other small animals
Early or late frost
Diseases
bug pests like Mexican bean beetle and so on.

Then you have to figure marketing cost and time spent, so that your produce will be competitive in the marketplace. You also have to have a buyer that is willing to buy when the crops are ready, and who will not abandon you when you cannot deliver at other times.

Overall, if you have water issues, I would estimate your chances of success at slightly greater than that of a snowball in hell.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by tinknal

Conventional gardening yes, but there are many things one can do to reduce water use.

On the other hand, fruit trees require 5 gallons a week Spring to Fall around here, and so far we have had a hard time getting them established in spite of watering them in dry summer.

What is the likelihood that a well driller can get you a good water source?
Trucking water will get to be a bother, and must be a huge expense.

We have a well here in WV that produced about 45 gallons a minute when drilled, but I still want a cistern that can collect rain water that can be pumped out with a 12 volt solar pump with no grid power required.

[WoodlandWoolens]

Originally Posted by Harry Chickpea

You are going by gut feel and not using your brain. That is NOT meant as a put-down. We all do that from time to time.

I'm going to say flat out that if you continue down the road you are going, you are headed for disaster. I know you don't want to hear that, but when going into dicey situations, you HAVE to have a good understanding of all aspects of it, if you plan to get out alive.

First - gardening. I've said it before - you cannot grow food at the price you can buy it in season, even when you factor in profit margins for those in the delivery chain, and even WITHOUT any water costs. Agri-business is just that efficient. Trying to make a living off a market garden - organic or not - is chancy and you have to have a lot of factors working in your favor. There are plenty of good reasons to garden. Saving money is not one of them.

Second - water. Say you want to grow crops commercially on only 1/2 acre of land. Denver gets less than 16 inches of precipitation per year, much of that as snowfall. If we figure a growing season for one crop at 100 days, and want to have one inch of water per week to keep those plants healthy and robust, 100/7 = 14 inches of water. 1/2 acre is roughly a square 150' x 150'. expressing feet as inches: 150 x 12" = 1800". The area of 1/2 acre in inches is 1800 x 1800 or 3,240,000 square inches. 14 inches of water depth over that area makes 45,360,000 cubic inches. A gallon contains 231 cubic inches. You will need 196,363 gallons or 1,570,904 pounds of water for the garden. A medium size water tanker holds about 4,000 gallons. That means about 50 trips for the truck.

Now lets say that you do all sorts of tricks to keep water usage down and you only use 1/10th of that amount. I am being super-generous. That is STILL 5 truckloads of water to buy.

So your gardening costs are now:
Seeds
Soil prep (not cheap for organic)
Garden tools
Organic insecticide
Fencing
Water
Hoses and drip irrigators
Labor
Permit costs?
Amortization of land costs

You now have to figure in factors that might kill your crop:
Excess heat
Deer and antelope
Rabbits and groundhogs and skunks and other small animals
Early or late frost
Diseases
bug pests like Mexican bean beetle and so on.

Then you have to figure marketing cost and time spent, so that your produce will be competitive in the marketplace. You also have to have a buyer that is willing to buy when the crops are ready, and who will not abandon you when you cannot deliver at other times.

Overall, if you have water issues, I would estimate your chances of success at slightly greater than that of a snowball in hell.

Hhaa I really apprcieate your honesty in regards to this water issue! Yeah, that doesn't sound too promising!

But again I ask.... How are other people doing it? And again, how can I make this possible?!

[Yknot]

Hi WoodlandWoolens,
Cistern Pros, You are not breaking any laws and you can use as much water cas you can afford. Cons, You are relying on someone else for one of your most important needs.
How bout a well for household needs and a cistern for farming?
Many blessings.

[bruce2288]

People have told you how other people are doing it. They have a water right. Water laws were not always as they are today.

How to do it? Either buy land with water rights or as you say enough land to be able to drill commercial well or buy someone water rights that can be transfered to your land.
Just because you want something does not mean it will happen. If you think water is valuable there you need to go to the west side.

[arabian knight]

There aree a lot of pros in the State of CO. But water is one huge con. And many states in the SouthWest, and some in the South you really need to think about these states that in order to have a good supply of water you should have water rights. Not having them creates a whole bunch of cons. Especially when you want to "farm" the land in some fashion even if it is only a few acres, it takes water, no if's and or but's about it.

[plowjockey]

Or another way to get around the irrigation and greenhouse stuff, would be to grow indoors inside my home, but not sure I'll have enough space for the kind of farming I want to do.....

You are probably better off running a meth lab out of your home, than trying to sneak water, in Colorado.

There are unappointed Water Police everywhere, that will rat you out in a heartbeat, for violating water laws.

When Colorado Springs first went to forced odd/even, lawn watering days, my sprinklers were broke for most of the summer. When they were finally fixed and accidentally cycled two evenings in a row, someone turned me in, and I quickly received two threatening letters, from the city.

FWIW, diesel fuel is ove $4/gal so having water hauled in would be prohibitive, even if you did it yourself.

[plowjockey]

Originally Posted by arabian knight

There aree a lot of pros in the State of CO. But water is one huge con. And many states in the SouthWest, and some in the South you really need to think about these states that in order to have a good supply of water you should have water rights. Not having them creates a whole bunch of cons. Especially when you want to "farm" the land in some fashion even if it is only a few acres, it takes water, no if's and or but's about it.

Absolutely right.

Even though Colorado produces plenty of water, the main reason they have none, is that the water belongs to NM, AZ and CA.

That where most of it goes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_River_Compact

[wwubben]

Buy land with water rights or forget about it.