Small Scale Farming w/no irrigation?

[WoodlandWoolens]

I'm just in the learning phase here. We are planning our move by Feb. next year, from OH to CO. The land is chilly and beautiful, high up in the mountains and just wonderful. It is a zone 4a, 9,000 ft. ele. We are learning the ropes as what can ACTUALLY live and not die up there. Our goal is to farm about .25 of an acre and sell specialty yummies to farmer's markets. We also plan on two hoop greenhouses to accomplish that.

The problem is it will not be zoned "ag" instead residential (we haven't actually bought the land yet, just finding the right one with our realtor right now) but we can't afford a zoned ag lot.

Soooo that means only one well per homesite. Therefor not irrigation. I'm wondering if/how I can accomplish watering the "farm".

Any suggestions?

[plowjockey]

We Lived in Colorado Springs for 10 years, which is 7,000ft. It was nearly impossible to grow anything without watering.

It certainly will be drier, at 9,000ft.

Catch as much rainwater as you can? Even that's tough, since it all seems to come down at once and evaporates very quickly.

Sorry I don't have a better solution, but CO is a very dry place.

You might look into hydroponics, which manages water very well.

[Alice In TX/MO]

Buy the water rights for ag use. Move somewhere else.

Edited to add:

OK. I'm going to tone down my response. It still may be blunt.

You are thinking of buying this property with the intention to market commercial produce. Your water rights do NOT allow you to do this.

I highly recommend you do research on acquiring more water rights, which may or MAY NOT be possible at that location. Colorado is NOT Ohio.

Unfortunately, you are thinking of making a HUGE investment without knowing enough first. Looking "wonderful" is different from making a living or surviving as a homestead.

Have you read the book about the young man who moved to Alaska to live off the land and DIED because he didn't know rabbits as a food source don't have enough fat to feed a human body?

[fireweed farm]

I've found greenhouse plants dry out incredibly quick.
How about drip irrigation from the well or is that not allowed?

[m33036272]

just moved from a place outside of pueblo water was an issue rain water is a posibleity drip or hydro would be best at that elivation plant days would be short however cabage punkins cants onions all growen there on irogation can't spell

[chamoisee]

Can you grow herbs that do well with low water (rosemary, lavender, oregano) and water them using greywater from the kitchen sink? I don't know if this is legal, but if you use a natural dish soap, it will be safe for the soil and plants. Herbs have a higher market value than veggies anyway.

But honestly, a quarter acre with very restricted water use....no. I would get a different piece of land, a bigger piece...and I would still grow very low water use plants. JMHO.

[Grandmotherbear]

You would get tired of hauling but I brought my city lawn n garden thru 2 FL droughts by using the water you run to heat up the shower and the a/c drip.Also plugged the tub and hauled the used shower water. I was happy when the drought ended.

[ET1 SS]

Our land is pretty wet. There is no shortage of water at all in a non-drought region.

But still our crops do not grow without watering.

Trees once established water themselves, but the first few years need watering.

[JohnL751]

without watering, I don't see how you will grow enough to sell any kind of vegetables!

[SFM in KY]

Also be aware that there are places in CO where catching/storage of rainwater/snowmelt for private/agricultural use is illegal.

I grew up and lived for many years gardening in MT where the climate/water situation is similar although not at elevations that high. Irrigation was absolutely necessary. I can remember my grandmother and mother talking about hauling water from the creek by the bucket to water trees and garden before they had a well and pumping from the well by hand before they had a gas-powered well pump.

[WoodlandWoolens]

I guess I should explain more! Hhehe, we are buying 5-10 acres, only using about an acre or less for growing + two or so solar panel green houses. The zone is 4a so it IS cold and DRY. But we only have a permit for one well for residential use only. That is why I was asking if there is another way to water, but perhaps I could use the well as drip irrigation as well (though I think that is illigal right?) I don't know anything about water rights or what that means so maybe you could clue me in?

We are in the planning stages right now, learning all we can about getting a farm up and running. I don't expect to fully make a living doing this, my husband has a very well paying job working from home for a large company (IKEA!) so this is more like a hobby that hopefully gets income.

As far as homesteading/rual living, we are no strangers or to the cold. We have only lived in this state (OH) for 6mo while my husband finishes a contract here, we have lived in MN our whole lives.

Soooo, we are just learning the ropes here.

Crops we were thinking about are:

Outside:Cole crops, cold weather loving crops
Green house: specialty crops/microgreens/herbs/wheatgrass ect.

We will be living in or around Fairplay CO, selling at the farmer's market in Breckenridge

Along with the crops/herbs we will sell at the farmer's market I will sell other added value items like handknits for babies/adults/ handspun yarn, knit dish cloths with handmade soaps ect.


ANOTHER QUESTION::::

What about Subdivisions? Can anyone tell me about that? A lot of inexpensive land is through a subdivision, what kind of "farming" rights do you have/if any? I suppose it depends on each subdivions rules. Would it not be a good idea to buy land through a division? Anyone have experience with a subdivision?

["SPIKE"]

Originally Posted by WoodlandWoolens

I guess I should explain more! Hhehe, we are buying 5-10 acres, only using about an acre or less for growing + two or so solar panel green houses. The zone is 4a so it IS cold and DRY. But we only have a permit for one well for residential use only. That is why I was asking if there is another way to water, but perhaps I could use the well as drip irrigation as well (though I think that is illigal right?) I don't know anything about water rights or what that means so maybe you could clue me in?

We are in the planning stages right now, learning all we can about getting a farm up and running. I don't expect to fully make a living doing this, my husband has a very well paying job working from home for a large company (IKEA!) so this is more like a hobby that hopefully gets income.

As far as homesteading/rual living, we are no strangers or to the cold. We have only lived in this state (OH) for 6mo while my husband finishes a contract here, we have lived in MN our whole lives.

Soooo, we are just learning the ropes here.

Crops we were thinking about are:

Outside:Cole crops, cold weather loving crops
Green house: specialty crops/microgreens/herbs/wheatgrass ect.

We will be living in or around Fairplay CO, selling at the farmer's market in Breckenridge

Along with the crops/herbs we will sell at the farmer's market I will sell other added value items like handknits for babies/adults/ handspun yarn, knit dish cloths with handmade soaps ect.


ANOTHER QUESTION::::

What about Subdivisions? Can anyone tell me about that? A lot of inexpensive land is through a subdivision, what kind of "farming" rights do you have/if any? I suppose it depends on each subdivions rules. Would it not be a good idea to buy land through a division? Anyone have experience with a subdivision?

I guess I do not know the restrictions there. 1/4 of an acre is not much garden area. Will the well not produce enough water? That is a small residential garden, who should care what you do with what you grow?

SPIKE

[WoodlandWoolens]

I think the well will have plenty of water (again we have not bought any land yet) just that if it's zoned for household use only.

[Alice In TX/MO]

You can NOT grow veggies to sell on land with those restrictions.

You need to do a LOT of research online and by phone to learn about water rights in the west. You are running a HUGE risk of buying based on assumptions.

It's a whole different ball game out there, and it varies by state, and it may even have differences by county or 'subdivisions.'

Protect yourself with knowledge. Make NO assumptions about water use in Colorado, either ground water or rain water. You may not own either, even if it's on your land.

Start here:
http://www.waterinfo.org/rights.html

[ronbre]

two things you might want to check into..

first google hugelkulture and read up on it..you store your water in the ground in the hugel beds by filling them with logs, bark, etc..and need much less irrigation

second check out Sepp Holtzer, he lives on top of a mountain and has a beautiful permaculture property he built over the years..he also uses Hugelkulture but other things too, he has a new book in English now..you can see video of his property

[ET1 SS]

Originally Posted by WoodlandWoolens

I guess I should explain more! Hhehe, we are buying 5-10 acres, only using about an acre or less for growing + two or so solar panel green houses. The zone is 4a so it IS cold and DRY.

Being on the border between zones 4 and 5 I do understand the cool temps.

But as you said where your looking is 'DRY'.

Now picture drought years. Which happens routinely. If it is dry in a wet year, what happens in a drought year?

... But we only have a permit for one well for residential use only. That is why I was asking if there is another way to water, but perhaps I could use the well as drip irrigation as well (though I think that is illigal right?)

I do not live in a drought-region so we do not do permits for wells.

Since you are in a area that requires a permit for a well, and since it is clearly illegal to use that well for Ag. Then I suggest that what you are proposing is strictly illegal.

You are going against your allowed zoning, and your going to violate the law in how you use the tiny amount of water that you can get [when your well is not dry].

... I don't know anything about water rights or what that means so maybe you could clue me in?

Other posters have been trying to do just that.

Without water rights, you break the law anytime you touch the water [in such a drought-prone region].

... We are in the planning stages right now, learning all we can about getting a farm up and running. I don't expect to fully make a living doing this, my husband has a very well paying job working from home for a large company (IKEA!) so this is more like a hobby that hopefully gets income.

Keep planning then.

... Crops we were thinking about are:

Outside:Cole crops, cold weather loving crops
Green house: specialty crops/microgreens/herbs/wheatgrass ect.

While you are violating all laws in your area; I would suggest that you avoid the greenhouse. Having a greenhouse may attract the attention of neighbors and Code Enforcement Officers. Anyone and everyone who sees a greenhouse will assume that you are using water.

Might as well just grow pot.

... What about Subdivisions? Can anyone tell me about that? A lot of inexpensive land is through a subdivision, what kind of "farming" rights do you have/if any? I suppose it depends on each subdivions rules. Would it not be a good idea to buy land through a division? Anyone have experience with a subdivision?

I do not expect there to be any 'rights' available in a subdivision. When land is broken up, if they write easements or restrictions into the deeds, those take away 'rights'.

They are essentially the opposite of 'rights'.

[Jan in CO]

I live in Colorado, but more on the plains, east of Colorado Springs. The water restrictions in this state are really something. Where you are thinking of moving you CAN put up a sturdy--note the sturdy part--greenhouse and grow a few things in it. You are subject to heavy snows at times. After all, you're close to a ski resort. Invest in snow shoes to get to the hoop houses to push up the ceiling and get the snow off before they collapse. You mention you HAVE a well permit. How can you get that before you have the land? Print off the restrictions for Domestic wells in Colorado and you will know if you can or cannot use the well water for a small garden.

As to subdivisions, it's different in each area. I know a nurse who purchased a nice home in a mountain subdivision near Woodland Park, on the way to Cripple Creek. Also at 9000 ft. They couldn't put up a greenhouse there and were restricted as to the color their door could be painted, so do your homework before you sign and decide! Not trying to rain on your parade, as we learned a lot after moving here. Be sure the realtor sends you pictures of all the homes in the area you are considering, as well as all around the property you want to buy. If I can help you in any way, let me know, and good luck! My father used to ask me why we didn't use the irrigation water in the ditch. I had to keep telling him in this area, there are NO irrigation ditches. In the northern areas, there are some, but not where you are looking.

[DW]

When we drilled our well many yrs ago...we could irrigate one acre. I'm not sure that's still the case on new wells but you should check into that first.

[WoodlandWoolens]

Originally Posted by Jan in CO

I live in Colorado, but more on the plains, east of Colorado Springs. The water restrictions in this state are really something. Where you are thinking of moving you CAN put up a sturdy--note the sturdy part--greenhouse and grow a few things in it. You are subject to heavy snows at times. After all, you're close to a ski resort. Invest in snow shoes to get to the hoop houses to push up the ceiling and get the snow off before they collapse. You mention you HAVE a well permit. How can you get that before you have the land? Print off the restrictions for Domestic wells in Colorado and you will know if you can or cannot use the well water for a small garden.

As to subdivisions, it's different in each area. I know a nurse who purchased a nice home in a mountain subdivision near Woodland Park, on the way to Cripple Creek. Also at 9000 ft. They couldn't put up a greenhouse there and were restricted as to the color their door could be painted, so do your homework before you sign and decide! Not trying to rain on your parade, as we learned a lot after moving here. Be sure the realtor sends you pictures of all the homes in the area you are considering, as well as all around the property you want to buy. If I can help you in any way, let me know, and good luck! My father used to ask me why we didn't use the irrigation water in the ditch. I had to keep telling him in this area, there are NO irrigation ditches. In the northern areas, there are some, but not where you are looking.

No we do not have a permit, maybe I mis-typed ;P BUT we are going to buy land (don't have that either) with only one allowed well and for household use only.


Thanks for ALL the advice.... still in the planning stages, I may just be getting ahead of myself!

Please, plaese keep the advice and honesty coming!

[SFM in KY]

Originally Posted by WoodlandWoolens

But we only have a permit for one well for residential use only. That is why I was asking if there is another way to water, but perhaps I could use the well as drip irrigation as well (though I think that is illigal right?) I don't know anything about water rights or what that means so maybe you could clue me in?

I have had friends in CO who have said their water rights allow ONLY household use for the well ... house, lawn/landscaping ... nothing else. Others are in an area or have water rights with the property that allow for personal garden (NOT gardening to sell for produce) and for watering livestock. Irrigation rights are generally separate and attached/sold only with agricultural property.

Again, let me emphasize that in some places it is also illegal to catch/store rainwater for use at all ... in other places it is allowed only for household use.

Originally Posted by WoodlandWoolens

ANOTHER QUESTION::::

What about Subdivisions? Can anyone tell me about that? A lot of inexpensive land is through a subdivision, what kind of "farming" rights do you have/if any? I suppose it depends on each subdivions rules. Would it not be a good idea to buy land through a division? Anyone have experience with a subdivision?

Most subdivisions are established when a person/company buys a large acreage (usually an established farm/ranch being sold) and the water rights are sold with that undivided tract of land. The water rights may be divided and a portion allotted to each subdivision parcel or may be sold as a package to an individual and not even necessarily within that subdivision. You will have to look at the records/deeds to find out what the situation is and you want that on your deed.

I lived for a time on a 10-acre parcel in a subdivision like this and we had irrigation water rights ... we got irrigation water from the local dam/ditch 3 days twice during each summer. Period. We had a well permit and no restrictions on the well but we had to go almost 400 feet to get water and it was a fairly low producing well ... only about 3 gallons a minute as I recall. Enough water for house, livestock and a small personal garden.

I looked at property in Utah once that was a 40-acre parcel but no water rights at all, all of the water rights had been sold with a much larger parcel that was being used as a commercial farm operation. A well permit could be obtained for the 40 acres but it was in an area where the water was known to be deep (400 ft or more) and not guaranteed.

In western states, the first thing you need to ask about is water rights on any property you are considering buying. Then research it yourself to make sure you are being told what is actually true and you understand exactly what those rights are. In fact, in most cases I would suggest you consult an attorney who is familiar with area real estate and water rights ... it may be the best investment you make.