Are pines/pine mulch bad for apple trees?

Grandmotherbear · #1 01/09/12, 09:37 PM

Not a lot of information about apples readily available to us, but we have planted a couple of different low-chill apples- a 3-in-1 graft (Golden Dorset, Anna, Einshmer) A seperate Golden Dorset, a tropic Sweet, a yellow transparent crab and an everest crab, and a Pettingill. The 3 in 1 graft lived 5 years but everything else lived very short times (except the everest crab) The pettingill and golden dorset died within a few months and the Tropic Sweet isn't even a year old and we think it's dying. The trees first would bloom in high summer after starting a few fruits in spring, and would keep putting out 1-2 blooms thru fall and winter. We have large mature pines on the property and I used pine needle mulch for the apples. Our soil is sugar sand. The apples have all been planted within 25 feet of the pine trees. The other problem we have is ants. They don't seem to die with ant treatments-just move their cities around, and the 3 in 1 seemed pretty healthy its first 3 years until the ants moved in.
We feed them citrus fertilizer (don't remember the exact propertions but something like 19-6-9- I do know the first number is 19) and we water weekly-the last 2 summers had long periods of drought.
We were really hoping we'de be able to get at least couple of apples o live and bear fruit. We planted Anna apples years ago in the city and they died within 18 months. The extension agent theorized it was too hot in the city and we might have better luck at the lake cabin, it usually being at least 10 degrees cooler at night and during the winter. But our microclimate at the lake is zone 10 and 2012 is foorcast to be another record breaker for heat- just like 2011 was.
Any ideas on what might be going wrong with our trees? I'm about ready to give up but Grandfatherbear really, really wants to grow apples....

Huntmo1 · #2 01/09/12, 09:56 PM

Sounds like Cedar Apple Rust disease to me. We planted a couple apple trees 2 years ago and this year they started out great in the spring, but then the leaves starting getting yellow spots and never produced fruit. I never knew about it, but I think that is what happened to ours. Below is a link to a website that discusses it...the pic of the leaf spots is just like what happened to us. We have 'pine' trees around our house and some of the neighbors have them in their yards, so perhaps I won't be able to grow them. I just hope they'll come back this year.

http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docush...PP-7611web.pdf

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grandmotherbear

Not a lot of information about apples readily available to us, but we have planted a couple of different low-chill apples- a 3-in-1 graft (Golden Dorset, Anna, Einshmer) A seperate Golden Dorset, a tropic Sweet, a yellow transparent crab and an everest crab, and a Pettingill. The 3 in 1 graft lived 5 years but everything else lived very short times (except the everest crab) The pettingill and golden dorset died within a few months and the Tropic Sweet isn't even a year old and we think it's dying. The trees first would bloom in high summer after starting a few fruits in spring, and would keep putting out 1-2 blooms thru fall and winter. We have large mature pines on the property and I used pine needle mulch for the apples. Our soil is sugar sand. The apples have all been planted within 25 feet of the pine trees. The other problem we have is ants. They don't seem to die with ant treatments-just move their cities around, and the 3 in 1 seemed pretty healthy its first 3 years until the ants moved in.
We feed them citrus fertilizer (don't remember the exact propertions but something like 19-6-9- I do know the first number is 19) and we water weekly-the last 2 summers had long periods of drought.
We were really hoping we'de be able to get at least couple of apples o live and bear fruit. We planted Anna apples years ago in the city and they died within 18 months. The extension agent theorized it was too hot in the city and we might have better luck at the lake cabin, it usually being at least 10 degrees cooler at night and during the winter. But our microclimate at the lake is zone 10 and 2012 is foorcast to be another record breaker for heat- just like 2011 was.
Any ideas on what might be going wrong with our trees? I'm about ready to give up but Grandfatherbear really, really wants to grow apples....

CesumPec · #3 01/09/12, 10:39 PM

Have you contacted these folks and asked them?

http://www.chestnuthillnursery.com/?...FUhgTAodmhrSOA

they have apple trees especially adapted for Florida and may know a few tricks.

coup · #4 01/10/12, 06:58 AM

well, i would try differant area and diff mulch for sure,never even thought of putting pine needles for mulch on apples....acidic suppose to be good for blueberries................you should be able to find all kinds of apple forums-blogs on the net..........all else i have some apples that are growing close to white pines that are huge.....also need to to keep apples out of the shade as much as you can............i use to put old horse piles in my apple holes when planting......i use mostly ole wild apple rootstocks and then graft after they grow a couple of years.........

Grandmotherbear · #5 01/10/12, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lanewilliam21

Sounds like Cedar Apple Rust disease to me. We planted a couple apple trees 2 years ago and this year they started out great in the spring, but then the leaves starting getting yellow spots and never produced fruit. I never knew about it, but I think that is what happened to ours. Below is a link to a website that discusses it...the pic of the leaf spots is just like what happened to us. We have 'pine' trees around our house and some of the neighbors have them in their yards, so perhaps I won't be able to grow them. I just hope they'll come back this year.

http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docush...PP-7611web.pdf

The site downloaded but I've waited 5 minutes and still have a blank white screen.

Grandmotherbear · #6 01/10/12, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coup

well, i would try differant area and diff mulch for sure,never even thought of putting pine needles for mulch on apples....acidic suppose to be good for blueberries................you should be able to find all kinds of apple forums-blogs on the net..........all else i have some apples that are growing close to white pines that are huge.....also need to to keep apples out of the shade as much as you can............i use to put old horse piles in my apple holes when planting......i use mostly ole wild apple rootstocks and then graft after they grow a couple of years.........

I don't have a different area. It's the lawn between the cabin and the lake, the size of a city lot. We have 4 huge pine trees and our neighbor has more. Can't plant the area between the house and road as a. buried utility lines and b. need to keep it open in case we need to have trucks come in. and c. that's where the rubber tree holds a goodsized beehive.

Grandmotherbear · #7 01/10/12, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CesumPec

Have you contacted these folks and asked them?

http://www.chestnuthillnursery.com/?...FUhgTAodmhrSOA

they have apple trees especially adapted for Florida and may know a few tricks.

I'll check them out again.

Common Tator · #8 01/10/12, 08:42 AM

Plant them somewhere else. At our house int he burbs of Orange County California (warm climate) we have Anna and Dorset apples in the yard. We get a crop in the spring, and another in the fall.

A friend of ours, Kevin Hauser is a warm weather apple expert. You can see his website here, and contact him. http://www.kuffelcreek.com/apples.htm He can probably give you the best information.

Aside from our place in Orange County, we also own an apple orchard of 100 year old trees, cold weather varieties in the mountains of Southern California. It is planted in an area that was once forested with native conifers and oaks. Seems like the trees planted closes to the treeline of the forest don't do as well as the ones planted farther away. I don't know if it has to do more with the soil acidity from the pines, or with the shade from the tall pines.

Waiting Falcon · #9 01/10/12, 09:18 AM

The forestry dept told me that cedar trees up to a 1/4 mile away will harm apple trees.

lisa's garden · #10 01/10/12, 10:00 AM

I'm wondering if the citrus fertilizer was too acid or was applied too strong? New trees should be given a chance to root in and grow a bit before applying a high nitrogen fertilizer. Newly planted trees need a low phosphorus fertilizer for root growth and in sandy soil will need plenty of water to become established. Don't use nitrogen until the tree is established, and then it should not be high nitrogen. A high middle number (potassium) is for flowering and fruiting, high first number (nitrogen) is for green leafy growth, and a high last number (phosphorus) is for root development.

oregon woodsmok · #11 01/10/12, 03:29 PM

Get a soil pH test. Stop mulching with pine needles.

Pines like acidic soil and if your pines are doing well, your soil is probably already acidic. Adding pine needles just makes it more so.

If soil is acidic, in your area, you can probably grow rabbit eye blueberries. You can lime the soil to change pH so you can grow apples. But you can't know whether you need lime without doing a pH soil test.

mooman · #12 01/11/12, 08:35 AM

If all alse fails there are some dwarf apples that can be grown in large containers.

Cedar apple rust will look like bright orange patchs on leaves. It is not in itself fatal to the tree, but can weaken the tree if the infection is very bad. The up side is that it is easy to treat if you don't mind using fungicides. The only comercial fungicide I have had success with is Specrticide Immunox multi purpose fungicide. The active ingredient is Myclobutanil (not found in most commercial fungicides)

You only have to use it for about a month when the fungus in airborne in the spring. Not sure when that would be in Florida, but if you have cedar trees around, you can see these orange slimy growths on the trunk. Those are the fruiting bodies of the fungus during its "cedar" stage and my queue to start spraying my trees.

good luck

Grandmotherbear · #13 01/11/12, 08:47 AM

, and another in the fall.

A friend of ours, Kevin Hauser is a warm weather apple expert. You can see his website here, and contact him. http://www.kuffelcreek.com/apples.htm He can probably give you the best information.
Thanks, CommonTater This website looks fascinating. Maybe there was a reason I found the tree sized pots by the roadside. Maybe I need to plant dwarfed trees...Am ordering this book and sending off an email.
Mooman I had suggested fungicides to GFB and even bought neem for him to spray - don't know if he did or not sigh...

Grandmotherbear · #14 01/11/12, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oregon woodsmok

Get a soil pH test. Stop mulching with pine needles.

Pines like acidic soil and if your pines are doing well, your soil is probably already acidic. Adding pine needles just makes it more so.

If soil is acidic, in your area, you can probably grow rabbit eye blueberries. You can lime the soil to change pH so you can grow apples. But you can't know whether you need lime without doing a pH soil test.

We have blueberries on the side of the house where the pump is- in pots.

Grandmotherbear · #15 01/24/12, 08:33 AM

tHANKS TO EVERYONE FOR THEIR RESPONSES. www.kuffelcreek.com is a wonderful site for apple growers who live in warm climates. We also found www.bighorsecreekfarm.com, who are attempting to regenerate Soutern heirloom apples. Apparently before the mechanization of food transport, there were many apples locally adapted to different climates, especially long term "keeper" apples for the South prior to refigeration. I have aordered King David, Wealthy, and Terry Winter apples on M111 rootstock from them, and will hit my regular FL apple tree suppliers for golden dorset and anna. I strongly urge all Southerners interested in growing apples to check uot these 2 websites.