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  #1  
Old 01/07/12, 02:16 PM
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Tax time....tips, info on filing small farm business?!?!

We are starting up the last couple years raising sheep, eggs, chickens, veggies, ect. We are trying to decide if its worth it to use our expenses for a deduction for IRS for a small farm business...our expenses clearly outweigh any profit at this point and we are getting our foundation in place, but it is a for profit venture, just dont know how long it will take to 'profit' since we need to build a barn now and need a truck (ours caught on fire)
We raise some for our own use and the rest to sell. So anyway, what are the pros/cons of doing this and any tips? We have been saving most our receipts and jotting down any cash expenses. But we have receipts going back years but did not sell much at first so never got the IRS involved. Does it help? Do you get a decent % deduction? Or does it hardly make a difference? I cant seem to find any real (laymans) info out there about this. I have some big expenses coming up this year for the farm (need to build a barn, replace fencing, waterlines, electrical, farm truck and trailer, ect) and need to get this figured out. We plan on making a profit, but what happens if you dont within the 5 years your supposed to? Do you have to pay the IRS back?! What if the economy tanked again and we did not make a profit, or the animals got a disease or something like that?!?
I usually do our taxes since we had nothing complicated but I know nothing about this, obviously I'll need to hire someone???? Or can I figure it out on my own?

Thanks for any tips,
Stephanie
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  #2  
Old 01/07/12, 06:42 PM
 
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If you have other income that you now pay tax on , most likely it would be a good thing to claim your "farm" losses against that income.

Most of the things that you mention needing to spend money on are in the category that require expenses to be spread out over several years. No real problem here, the IRS has directions for you. Google that.

If you plan to keep farming for several years, it would be good to be able to claim your losses. If you are willing to read enough information on the IRS site you will be able to figure out how to set up your books and records.

I would think that you could do your own books, and taxes. Most of us are not nearly as helpless as the government would have us believe.
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  #3  
Old 01/07/12, 07:18 PM
 
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If it's your primary income the loss is tolerated by the IRS for a long time. If it is secondary income too many years of operating at a loss is a red flag for an audit. The IRS considers that more along the lines of a hobby farm rather than a business.

The big additions would depreciate nicely over a few years though. buildings don't depreciate as well as equipment like tractors. Depreciation is your friend with a farm business.

My suggestion is to do the farm form (schedule F) on turbo tax as a dry run. Then do it without and see where you stand. If you use turbo tax every year and import the info. It will actually keep track of your depreciation credit for you. We have found it to be very accurate and pretty easy to navigate, just answer questions and fill in amounts. We often do a dry run at the end of the year to figure if last minute purchases will help offset some taxes.
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  #4  
Old 01/08/12, 06:26 AM
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I totally agree with Hintonlady
WE use them an it is very simple to figure out.
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  #5  
Old 01/08/12, 07:57 AM
 
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I have been doing our agricultural business taxes w/Turbotax the last few years just as a non-farm business.

Got any ideas whether or not it would be beneficial to file a "Farm" tax return for it instead? We are a small commercial rabbit operation. Turn a profit yearly.

Thanks.
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  #6  
Old 01/08/12, 11:01 AM
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I'm a CPA with a practice that primarily does tax and accounting work for horse people and farms, perhaps I can give you some pointers.

The first question I would ask, is do you have a written business plan? Why is this important? If you are audited you need to be able to prove that this is a for profit venture. I've seen an audit end up in tax court for lack of a written business plan. I always advise my clients to not get to hung up with the verbal part of the business plan (it is necessary but it isn't the proof in the pudding), and pay attention to the numbers. In fact, I tell them to start with the numbers because if the numbers don't support a profit motive, they can stop right there.

Do you conduct business like a business? Strange question, isn't it? But there are certain things a business venture does that a hobby venture wouldn't concern itself with doing. Do you maintain a separate business banking account? Do you issue 1099 slips to individuals and businesses you hired? Do you maintain proper accounting records? Do you change your business direction based on results? Do you record your personal use of eggs, chickens etc? If you can answer yes to all or most of these questions you are going in the right direction, if you can't, you're not! Here's a link to an article I wrote many years ago discussing the differences between a hobby and a business: Are Your Horses Tax Deductible (You can substitute farm for horse).

You ask if it is worth it to claim the deduction? If you were my client I'd ask the question a different way: Are you or aren't you in business? If you consider yourself in business, than you should prepare a Schedule F and all other related schedules.

What happens if you don't make a profit in 5 years? You are referring to the safe harbor rule. This the safe harbor rule: " It allows a presumption that the taxpayer is engaged in for profit if in 3 of 5 consecutive years (2 of 7 in the case of breeding, training, showing or racing of horses), the activity is profitable"

What this means is if you realize a profit 3 of 5 years you WILL be considered a business but it does not mean that if you don't realize a profit in 3 of 5 years that you WON'T be considered a business -other mitigating factors will determine that

You mentioned it might be a while before you show a profit because you need to build a barn and replace a truck -these are both capital items with the barn being depreciated over 20 years, the impact on the bottom line would probably not be very large.

We plan on making a profit, but what happens if you dont within the 5 years your supposed to? Do you have to pay the IRS back? Maybe. LOL. If you don't make a profit your deduction for farm losses is not automatically disallowed. If the IRS audits you, you may find that they apply all the factors previously discussed and rule that you are a hobby and not a farm. If that were the case your deduction for the years under audit would be disallowed, the IRS would recalculate your income without the deduction and if a balance due resulted, you'd have to pay that to the IRS plus interest and penalties.

My recommendation is to get professional help. Don't go to H&R block, find someone who specializes in farms especially small farms. Have them prepare your taxes at least for the first year. The cost may be much less than you'd expect. In my business an average federal return with farm schedules is prepared for about $225-$300. Keep in mind having well organized records minimizes your fee. The person you choose doesn't have to be local -I myself prepare returns for clients across the country.

As for doing your return with Turbo Tax -yes you can opt that route but I wouldn't recommend it. The software is good but it can only prepare a return as accurate as the information that goes into it. I have reviewed many client Turbo Tax prepared returns and very few have had no errors. This is because
the program can't replace years of expertise, it can't ask you questions specific to YOUR business, the questions are generic.

I hope this long winded answer helps you make an informed decision.
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  #7  
Old 01/08/12, 02:45 PM
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What equineCPA said -

A rural CPA isn't going to cost tons of money and the advice and tax prep services will be well worth it. Turbotax will accurately compute the taxes based on the info you provide but how are you going to know what info is in your best interests?

While I wish no financial harm to equineCPA, my foolish hope is that one day we'll have a simple tax system that forces most tax CPAs to look for other work. But until that happens, I'll keep paying my CPA.
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  #8  
Old 01/08/12, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CesumPec View Post
What equineCPA said -

While I wish no financial harm to equineCPA, my foolish hope is that one day we'll have a simple tax system that forces most tax CPAs to look for other work.
LOL -I have faith that even if our government implemented a flat tax type system the first thing they'd would be make exceptions. There is talk about a flat tax whereby the taxpayer could calculate income taxes payable based on the lesser of the flat tax or the conventional method. Sounds great, but the taxpayer still have to calculate income taxes payable under the old system to see which is less. I'm confident my job will be secure until I retire!
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  #9  
Old 01/08/12, 04:53 PM
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Wow thanks for all the great info! thats the information/nitty gritty I have not been able to find anywhere. I really appreciate it.
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  #10  
Old 01/09/12, 04:50 PM
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EquineCPA called it right. The other thing I would add is that by not failing your schedule F and 4562 (Depreciation) you can cause yourself grief. For example, it is presumed that your capital assets are being depreciated and you will need to add that back in when you sell your farm or the equipment.

I didn't realize for example that it is presumed that you are electing the 100% bonus depreciation this year on equipment purchases (we bought a tractor) unless you specifically elect not to take it. We wanted to take it so not a problem for us.

Mike
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  #11  
Old 01/09/12, 04:58 PM
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For a farm truck, does it matter if you buy or lease????
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  #12  
Old 01/09/12, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by equinecpa View Post
There is talk about a flat tax whereby the taxpayer could calculate income taxes payable based on the lesser of the flat tax or the conventional method. Sounds great, but the taxpayer still have to calculate income taxes payable under the old system to see which is less.
which is exactly why I hate that tax plan. i don't know how politicians can be so stupid as to give us a "simple" tax plan that is more complex.

SO yes, I agree, your job is secure.
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  #13  
Old 01/10/12, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Mission View Post
For a farm truck, does it matter if you buy or lease????
It all depends on the circumstance. I'd recommend not leasing and looking for a used truck -there are a lot of good deals out there. If you're trying to do this profitably loading the business with debt isn't necessarily the best idea.

Also I don't know about you but we always put way to many miles to stay within lease guidelines and also since the truck "works" it would probably get dinged on condition at lease return.
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