Need help about a used car...timing belt question

[Ravenlost]

My son is trying to find a used car. His wasn't worth the cost of fixing it, so he sold it "as is" and needs a new one ASAP because his wife is expecting and they have no way to get to and from the doctor.

He found this on Craigslist list and is wondering how much it costs to have a new timing belt installed:

http://huntsville.craigslist.org/cto/2562127597.html

Any advice?

[Qhorseman]

I had one put on my daughters Plymouth Breeze, cost me $650. Need to have it done before it breaks or it will cost around $2000. BTDT on my other daughters car.

[Ravenlost]

OUCH...more than he can spend. Guess he'd better keep looking. Thanks!

[arabian knight]

I looked at the ad. It says the motor turns over, Well ya that is good. BUT with that timing belt broke. And turning the motor over is taking a Risk that some valves may be in the Down or in the Open position meaning the top of the piston Could and May have HIT the valve.
I would RUN as fast I could could AWAY from that deal.
If valves are bent it is not a good deal at all. And a person will never know that until the belt is put back on and the motor is started up.
Just a FYI. The valves may not have hit the top of the pistons but you Don't know that.

[DryHeat]

It's a labor-intensive repair. First, though, you need to be sure the motor didn't tear itself up assuming the existing belt did in fact tear apart. There are two general styles of motor design for the belts... "interference" and "non-interference." In the non- case, the one you want, the pistons and valves are designed so they don't whack each other if the belt pops and they're all going up and down randomly. The valves might be bent and such but still allow the motor to turn from the starter without any obvious clatter and grinding. So, you need to consult with a dealership or trusted mechanic, or maybe do some Googling on that model to see if it's non-interference design (the good case.) If it isn't, I wouldn't take a chance with the belt popped. If the motor was really revved up even a non-int design might have some damage, but the odds are better. I had it happen to an older (late-80s) Toyota and it simply stalled and wouldn't start again but was fine after the belt repair.

If the basic design makes it seem that the repair isn't going to involve rebuilding the innards, you might get someone to look up the "book" number for the hours allowed for labor on the work. It could easily be 4 or so at $100 an hour for higher-overhead mechanics nowadays. You generally have to take off the belts and all the externals like alternator and air conditioning compressor. Also, on many models since they'd have 100K+ miles at that point, you'd be an idiot not to have the water pump replaced at the same time since the labor overlaps a lot and the part life is similar, maybe the serpentine belt and cooling hoses and that stuff too, but the water pump's usually the only must-do. All of those parts are usually not that expensive but the labor runs way up, especially if you don't do it all at once to anything that hasn't already been done recently.

Another thing you can research is whether you can spot a mechanic there on Craigslist, or with other local searching, who advertises as coming "to you" with no shop overhead so he charges less for labor. There was a guy here who started out working like that for $25 an hour but has drifted up to $45 now I think... still half what dealerships and large repair places charge. But make SURE to check references and such, you'd want somebody who's having trouble because of the economy, not because he's incompetent or drunk or a flake of some sort.

[Ravenlost]

He has a very trustworthy mechanic he uses, but sounds like he needs to keep looking.

[Energy Rebel]

Ravenlost,
Is your son trying to find a car in Huntsville, Al or was that just an ad you saw that was close enough to check out?
And yeah, the others are right. You don't want THAT one, for all the reasons stated.
The reason I ask, is one my oldest friends lives in Huntsville, used to be in the car business, but owns his own dumpster business now.
Anyway, I know he still runs across deals and might be able to help.
PM me if you want me to give him a call tomorrow.


BTW I think this confirms the caution about interference engines in this case.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_Daewo...nce_fit_engine

[Nevada]

Originally Posted by Qhorseman

I had one put on my daughters Plymouth Breeze, cost me $650. Need to have it done before it breaks or it will cost around $2000. BTDT on my other daughters car.

Yes. That's what I'm concerned about. If the timing belt is already broken then the engine could be trashed.

[Ravenlost]

Energy Rebel, he lives in Huntsville and is trying to find a car there. I'll PM you.

He's also thinking about looking at this one and making an offer of $800. BTW...he knows NOTHING about cars. He can change a tire, but that's it.

http://huntsville.craigslist.org/cto/2600909337.html

[Energy Rebel]

Volvo is a decent car, but expensive to fix.
I know he's gonna have to find one he can afford, but a 1992 might be pushing it, that's why if you buy older and cheap, they need to be affordable to fix, cuz they all need fixin' sometimes, lol.
1,000 would be about top dollar for that one.

It pays to look long and hard.

[Ravenlost]

We're definitely looking hard, just don't have long to look! LOL...

I figured Volvo might be expensive on repairs (had an Audi myself one time...foreign cars don't fix cheap).

SIGH...will continue to search.

[HeelSpur]

650 bucks, had one put on car before it was sold a couple years ago, under $300.
Find another mechanic who cares about his work and not dollar signs.

[CarolT]

Baby on the way, you want reliable. Personally, I'd run from the first and consider the last. Around here (close to Huntsville), Volvos are not as costly to fix as say a Honda... And I know a couple of people who swear by their reliability. Me? I'd try to find a mid 90s Lumina (car, not van. Why Chevy thought they needed to use the name twice, I'll never know!) but that's me...

Congrats on the baby and good luck!

BTW, I have a Honda Accord sitting in the yard that needs a head because the timing belt broke.... Fixed that and the camshaft broke... Yep, bent valves.

[Qhorseman]

Originally Posted by HeelSpur

650 bucks, had one put on car before it was sold a couple years ago, under $300.
Find another mechanic who cares about his work and not dollar signs.

Lots of shade tree mechanics around, good mechanics can ask the extra money and get it. I don't mind paying a good technician the money.

[farmerj]

zero clearance DOHC motor.

Anytime you see a timing belt issue, assume the worst and check to see if this is a zero clearance engine.

What that means is that if the belt breaks, the pistons will smack the valves in the head doing major damage.

So while it's expensive to do the belt, you will have major physical damage to the engine as well.

[clovis]

Originally Posted by Ravenlost

Energy Rebel, he lives in Huntsville and is trying to find a car there. I'll PM you.

He's also thinking about looking at this one and making an offer of $800. BTW...he knows NOTHING about cars. He can change a tire, but that's it.

http://huntsville.craigslist.org/cto/2600909337.html

No way in the world would I let him get that Volvo.

I have two friends that are Volvo nut jobs, and even they say that Volvo repairs are more expensive than what the car is generally worth.

I also have an uncle that owns a Volvo 740...can you say J-U-N-K?

One of my friends had a heater go out on their 740. It cost $750 to pull the dash to repair it.

His best bet will be to find a car the manufacturers built millions of, and parts are cheap and readily available. Chevy Monte Carlo, Lumina, Impala, Buick Century, Ford Taurus, etc.

[HermitJohn]

The Volvo 740, if its a 5spd, I would take a chance. Really dont want a high mile car of any brand with an automagic tranny. Transmissions are expensive. Course if you hire it done so are clutches.

My first Volvo with that same OHC 4cyl was a 1976 model 240. Bought it with 200k on odometer and thought I must be crazy, I grew up in a time when a car was considered used up at 100k. But it was only cheap car I found that rode and drove ok when I really needed a car. Lets see over next 50k mile, I replaced the $25 timing belt in 15 minutes on side of road (timing belt was special order where I lived at time and took two days to get there) but luckily back then cops werent so gung ho to immediately tow something and get their kickback from the impound lots. I also replaced the brake pads and either a ball joint or a u-joint. Cant really remember since I've owned lot volvos over the years. But what I'm saying is if you can do your own simple repairs, the old 140 and 240 Volvos were pretty cheap to keep while being reliable as it gets on high mile car. If you hire repairs on them, then the shops charge a premium, no idea why, suppose they figure if you can afford a Volvo, you can afford to put their kids through college.

Now that 1976 was manual transmission and no computer and no air conditioning. By 80s and 90s, they had went to computerized systems and most Volvos came with bunch options. So most likely even though its basically same engine the control systems would be lot more complex and you arent going to replace the timing belt in 15 minutes on side of the road. Still if timing belt goes on one of these old 4cyl Volvo engines, valves are non-interference and you wont destroy the engine.

I wouldnt even consider a Daewoo.

In shop forum thread I got into a discussion with a poster with a 90s era Saturn, think its called "S" series and personally I'd go with the single overhead cam engine rather than the dual overhead cam engine, single is less power but its simpler. These are fairly cheap and pretty durable. Good reputation. I'd consider one if I needed a small car. Though I am so familiar and comfortable with old Volvos that if I ran into one of them.... I also like Hondas of that generation. But Hondas all have an interference engine. You NEED to change timing belt and water pump on them every 60k miles!!!! Or the engine will be toast and not worth repair cost. And my philosophy is to find the simplest to repair car you can when looking at anything old or with high miles. Also pick a model that is well known to be durable and not give problems or if it does give problems its something that can affordably be fixed. That means manual transmission, manual roll up windows, manual everything if possible. Automated crap goes bad as miles rack up and its usually expensive and complicated to replace. Unfortunately people are sold new cars that have the automated ash trays and every convenience option known to man, it seriously increases dealer profits. Thats why late model used cars with manual transmission and roll up windows are so hard to find. Plus kids arent taught to drive a stick shift so they fear them.

[HermitJohn]

Originally Posted by clovis

No way in the world would I let him get that Volvo.

I have two friends that are Volvo nut jobs, and even they say that Volvo repairs are more expensive than what the car is generally worth.

I also have an uncle that owns a Volvo 740...can you say J-U-N-K?

One of my friends had a heater go out on their 740. It cost $750 to pull the dash to repair it.

His best bet will be to find a car the manufacturers built millions of, and parts are cheap and readily available. Chevy Monte Carlo, Lumina, Impala, Buick Century, Ford Taurus, etc.

That OHC Volvo 4cyl was bulletproof, only better 4cyl was the earlier OHV all cast iron version used in the 120 series and 140 series and very early 240 series. It started out as half of a Volvo commercial truck V8 in 1950s so had very heavy castings and bearings and such. Now the V6 offered in Volvos in 80s and maybe 90s wasnt a great engine. Made in an alliance with Peugeot and Renault and super high dollar to do anything to. It was an engine designed by committee voting on it in my best guess.

I have news, if its modern, its high priced to HIRE fixed. That includes Chevy Monte Carlo, Lumina, Impala, Buick Century, Ford Taurus, etc. If you can do it yourself then most things are still affordable to do, though many times that means not repairing stuff but buying used low mile engine and transmission assemblies from junk yards. Trying to actually repair some modern engines, just the parts would cost more than another car.

As to $750 heater repair on Volvo, I can tell you I know somebody that got a $1000 estimate to fix heater on a Ford Exploder. It wasnt the heater core, it wasnt the blower. It was because some stupid little vacuum door in the ductwork stuck closed or broke loose or something. The door wasnt available as separate part so had to buy whole new assembly. Then the dash had to be completely taken apart to put this new assembly in. The part was several hundred and labor the rest. Can we say STUPID design, it saved the company couple bucks on assembly line, but it makes the consumer pay an incredibly high price down the road.

And yes I had the heater blower motor go on one of old Volvos I had. Just the part was couple hundred way back then. It was lot labor to get to it. But my time was cheap and I just adapted blower motor from something else that was cheap. Again it pays to be able to work on cars yourself. And if I hadnt been able to adapt a cheap part, I would have just ripped out radio and lot other unnecessary plastic crap and made room for a universal heater/defroster unit under dash, like people used to put in new cars back when new cars came from factory without a heater. This idea that everything has to be done just like factory did it, even though it was a poor/expensive design is crazy. Especially crazy when you are just trying to keep some high mile jalopy on the road. Putting thousands of dollars into a $200 jalopy isnt economical.

[HermitJohn]

Originally Posted by CarolT

Me? I'd try to find a mid 90s Lumina (car, not van. Why Chevy thought they needed to use the name twice, I'll never know!) but that's me...

Glad you said car, not van. I had an elderly friend that bought the Lumina van. I have no idea why he bought a mini van. Told me, "well I never owned a mini van..." And this has to be worst designed mini van ever. I have no problem stating that IMHO this was the ultimate car from hell and worst car I ever tried to work on. When some kid at Wally forgot the radiator cap during oil change and fluid check and thing self destructed, told him to go find the kid and give him a $50 bonus for putting the thing out of it misery.

[luvrulz]

Originally Posted by Qhorseman

I had one put on my daughters Plymouth Breeze, cost me $650. Need to have it done before it breaks or it will cost around $2000. BTDT on my other daughters car.

There is no guarantee even if you have it done before it breaks. I replaced one on a Daewoo Lanos for $300 and not 2 months later, something on the timing belt flew off and caused another $2400 in damage. Unless you have a mechanic in the family and they can check it out in detail - I wouldn't do it. Just my 2 cents.....

Just looked at the CL ad and saw it was a Daewoo Lanos - RUN FOR THE HILLS AND FIND ANOTHER CAR!