Bottom/Turn Plow Question

[PD-Riverman]

My Father and Grandfather taught me many things about farming and using equipment before they Past but I never learned about bottom plowing.

When/why do you need to bottom plow?
Do you disk first or just turn under the grass and weeds?
What do you do next after bottom plowing?
How much time should be allowed between bottom plowing and planting?
If I disk the field good is that as good as bottom plowing?
Any Question I left out?

A Student here wanting to learn!!!


Keep in mind, I know how to bottom plow, how to set-up the plow-----bottom plowed many of hours when I was a young guy-----I just Did It when Dad or Granddad said do it. Now I asking YOU questions I should have ask them years ago.


THANKS

[fantasymaker]

Whats bottom plowing?

[Yvonne's hubby]

Originally Posted by PD-Riverman

My Father and Grandfather taught me many things about farming and using equipment before they Past but I never learned about bottom plowing.

When/why do you need to bottom plow?
Do you disk first or just turn under the grass and weeds?
What do you do next after bottom plowing?
How much time should be allowed between bottom plowing and planting?
If I disk the field good is that as good as bottom plowing?
Any Question I left out?

A Student here wanting to learn!!!


THANKS

Plowing was the standard for farming for prolly several thousand years... but todays modern farmers are skipping that part a lot. Personally I like to turn the soil and work that organic matter into the topsoil every spring before planting. It loosens the soil, and the organic matter that you plow under helps it to stay a bit looser and provides nutrients to the deeper roots of your crop. I plow about 10 to 12 inches deep a few days before I think I will be planting. I then pull a log or other "drag" across the ground to break up the bigger clods and smooth out the ground a bit. on planting day I take my disc to it and loosen up the top lightly, and plant in the nice loose fluffy soil. When dealing with clay soils never ever plow, disc or otherwise work your soil if its too wet. If you do you will end up with bricks that takes two years to get broke back down into something workable. I check the moisture level by taking a handful of the dirt and squeezing it... if it falls back apart when you open your hand its plenty dry, but if it sticks together in a ball... put yer plow away for a dryer day.

[PD-Riverman]

YouTube

This link will explain.

Originally Posted by fantasymaker

Whats bottom plowing?

[FarmboyBill]

Like above, Whats bottom plowing? Also like above, Usually only the BIG farmers have the BIG tractors to pull the types of tillage equipment that will forstall plowing. USUALLY, Us farmers/homesteaders/gardeners have to plow because our discs, harrows, ect are too light to get lost in the soil and turn it as the big tillage machines can. You may learn alot, as I did by getting Lynn Millers book Horse drawn tillage Tools. It tells how, when and why to plow. It gives reasons for discing before plowing, and I intend to use them. It tells how to set plows, and ground types, and about discing, and harrowing, useing a cultapacker, spring tooth and peg tooth harrows, roatary hoes, cultapackers, cultivators. How to use them all. Course, its set up and geared for horse farmers, but most of the information will transpose across for tractors.
Ill try to answer #4, I think. IF the ground is bare and you disc it good, and your going to sow only small seed, like grass or hay seed, then discing sowing, harrowing and packing if you have a packer will work. If your ground is bare and you weigh down your disc as much as the tractor will pull, and your going to plant corn, then discing, planting should work. IF your ground is weedy, trashy with weeds, grass, ect, buckbrush ect, than, NO, discing wont work alone. No matter what you intend to sow/plant.

Since you intend to try to plow you should know that different soils, and the lay of different soils make a big difference in the amount of tractor you have ahead of your plow. Up home in hilly NE Kans, We counted on a tractor that could deliver between 12/15hp PER plow share at 14in ea... That was hilly clay soil. In flat, sandy soil, one could get by with 10/13hp tractor. I have a cub Farmall that is supposed to have 12hp and pull a 10in plow. Now, in saying that, it would seem that im going against what I said above. Thing is, although the tractor has the hp to possibly pull a 14in plowshare, IT dosent have the weight for the hp to get traction to pull it. A A JD, A H Farmall, A WD AC, A 70 Oliver, A U MM, A SC Case all have around 3 times the weight of a CUB, but only around double the hp. Makes a big difference. I have my grandads 1934 CC Case, I have his 3 14 plow. Up home dad ran it in steep hills ON CLAY with not to much problem. I brought it down here to NE Okla, where the grounds flat as a dollar, BUT sandy, and the tractor would drop like a rock. I had to take off one bottom.
ALSO, a pull type plow pulls harder than a 3pt one does. Thats cause of added weight to the pull type in wheels, trip mech, ect. BUT by and large, its cause one can when in a hard place, and the tractor starts spinning, raise the plow slightly , enough to regain traction and keep going. Only thing one with a pull type plow can do is , trip the plow and try it. If that dont work, back up, hold the rope, or keep it hydraulically raised, and go forward again and retrip or drop the plow as soon as possible past that point.
If when buying a plow, Make sure it comes with the coulters, and that there free and rotate without any sideways slop. They have to be set just so far above the point of a plow share, and just so far forward. It tells all this in the book I mentioned. If its a pull type, make sure the wheels have no sideways slop. Look closely at the plow points. They should have just the slightest upwards slant, but at least make sure there at least even, each straight across from front to back. If a pull type, you will need a twisted clevis.Make sure the handles dont get close enough to you during turns to either hit you or the tractor fenders if they have them. You should have a good 20ft log chain in case you get the plow stuck if a pull type and you can release from it and take the chain to pull it out. Good luck.

[PD-Riverman]

Originally Posted by Yvonne's hubby

I plow about 10 to 12 inches deep a few days before I think I will be planting.

I have a 12 acre field for example. It has grass/weeds all over it about 2ft tall (average) Would it be good to bottom plow it? Disc it first or not? If I bottom plow it a few days before planting wouldn't the tall grass that was turned cause me problems hanging in my cultivaters? Would it be good to turn under all this green and let it sit over winter or not? Thanks

[FarmboyBill]

I just saw your vid, and Ill be go to hell if I would get in front of the public with a 2 12 plow with as big a 4WD a tractor as he had hooked to it. No, he dont need rolling cutters, hes got the power and traction to bust his way through the ground no matter what it is. If u wanna see plowing, Check out the A JDs plowing, Specially the old 30s one. Thats what I first drove, back in the late 50s.

[FarmboyBill]

As to your question about plowing under tall grass and sprouts. If youll brush hog it first, THEN you can easily disc it, and then plowing it will be a dream. NOT brush hogging it, I wouldnt disc it, The plow wont bury it all, and youll have thin green strips all over your field. UNLESS, like your guy in the dvd. If you have one heck of a tractor and a 12in plow, and put it in high gear with 4WD, then you can go fast enough to throw the dirt enough to cover it all. I have as I said, my Grandads 1934 CC Case, I have a 48 IHC H, I have a 50 Cub Demonstrator, The Cub pulls a 10in plow. Maybe a 12 in flat sandy soil with all the weights and fluid in the back. The other 2 pull 2 14in plows.
Ive never plowed depper than around 6in one side or the other, and thats with both handles all the way up. I had some spots of hard pan, and I wanted to hit them with the plow set deep. Over around 6/8yrs, I busted up that strip of hard pan.

[agmantoo]

Originally Posted by PD-Riverman

When/why do you need to bottom plow?
Do you disk first or just turn under the grass and weeds?
What do you do next after bottom plowing?
How much time should be allowed between bottom plowing and planting?
If I disk the field good is that as good as bottom plowing?
Any Question I left out?

A Student here wanting to learn!!!





THANKS

Here in the South natural quality soil seldom exists. The more successful (profitable) farmers have learned a few lessons that have enabled them to become more efficient and less dependent on fuel consuming machinery and purchased supplies. We have an extended growing season and hot weather that causes nutrients to leech. To avoid these losses, no till and conservation tillage have become the norm. These methods also conserve ground moisture. We have very little topsoil once we get away from the swamp areas. Even our best soils are low in organic matter. Our most productive soil is typically the top 1/2 to 1 inch of soil. That is where we should concentrate on getting our seeds planted and the area we need to preserve. Turned soil is known to cause organic nitrogen to be lost. Flat bottom plows have about become obsolete as a result. The only time I would consider plowing (turning the soil) is when converting from tree land to fields. This plowing would be done to aid in leveling the ground. I would then bring the Ph and nutrient level to match the crop I planned to grow. I also do not want to turn the soil to have the undesirable seeds at different depths to germinate in the future. Additionally you may want to research the impact on the soil microbes as a result of turning the soil.

[lmrose]

We break up new sod ground with a horse and plow. Then it is disked to break up clumps and harrowed to level the field. I wrote the short simple version of this procedure over on my blog. Also have another article titled "Tilling and Haying Without A Horse Or Tractor". We have always farmed the old fashioned way on small acreage.There are a couple of pictures also of Bill working with Rex. You can find all at; http://lindarose-afrugalabundantlife@blogspot.com

[Yvonne's hubby]

Originally Posted by PD-Riverman

I have a 12 acre field for example. It has grass/weeds all over it about 2ft tall (average) Would it be good to bottom plow it? Disc it first or not? If I bottom plow it a few days before planting wouldn't the tall grass that was turned cause me problems hanging in my cultivaters? Would it be good to turn under all this green and let it sit over winter or not? Thanks

I would think with that much grass and weeds you would want to cut it... possibly for hay? depending upon how much and type of grass and broadleaf you have. Once you have the heavy foilage off, then plow it, and seed it to a cover crop of some sort which can be turned under again come spring. You are correct with that much foilage, its going to give trouble plowing under and you will have some grass that will be difficult to disc up. Another alternative to mowing is to burn it off. This will get rid of a lot of your weed seed, and its good for the soil too. Just be very careful with burning... you dont want to set the entire world on fire... just the field.

[Old Vet]

Originally Posted by agmantoo

Here in the South natural quality soil seldom exists. The more successful (profitable) farmers have learned a few lessons that have enabled them to become more efficient and less dependent on fuel consuming machinery and purchased supplies. We have an extended growing season and hot weather that causes nutrients to leech. To avoid these losses, no till and conservation tillage have become the norm. These methods also conserve ground moisture. We have very little topsoil once we get away from the swamp areas. Even our best soils are low in organic matter. Our most productive soil is typically the top 1/2 to 1 inch of soil. That is where we should concentrate on getting our seeds planted and the area we need to preserve. Turned soil is known to cause organic nitrogen to be lost. Flat bottom plows have about become obsolete as a result. The only time I would consider plowing (turning the soil) is when converting from tree land to fields. This plowing would be done to aid in leveling the ground. I would then bring the Ph and nutrient level to match the crop I planned to grow. I also do not want to turn the soil to have the undesirable seeds at different depths to germinate in the future. Additionally you may want to research the impact on the soil microbes as a result of turning the soil.

I used to farm a large farm and the only way I would use a turning plow is to have something to turn over like vetch to add nitrogen to the ground or a lot of weeds that would become green manure other wise I would just disk it or run a ripper on it to break the hard pan.

[Bret4207]

By "bottom plow" I assume you mean a moldboard plow. In basic terms you want to get the 2 foot tall weeds and grass off that piece, burn it if you have to. Then, for this time of year, you'd fall plow 8-10" deep if possible and let the winter frosts work on it. In spring you'd go over the ground with a disc and then a spring tooth and plant away. Discing in heavy trash is hopeless unless you have a very large, heavy disc and the power to pull it. Even chiseling in heavy trash can be ineffective.

Depending on your soil and what you want to plant you may be better off spraying and doing no till.

[wwubben]

Here in Iowa some still plow in the fall and disc or field cultivate in the spring before planting.I would only listen to someone with a climate similar to yours.

[FarmboyBill]

Rose, How wides the disc u use with one horse. Ive never saw one someboody could use without at least 2 horses

OV. How many horses did u have under the hood when pulling that chisel ?

[lmrose]

[QUOTE=FarmBoyBill;5343631]Rose, How wides the disc u use with one horse. Ive never saw one someboody could use without at least 2 horses

OV. How many horses did u have under the hood when pulling that chisel ?[

FarmBoyBill; My Bill had to re-build all the old farm machienry to fit a single horse. I don't know the measurement but his disc was about half the size you use with a team. He rebuilt the harrow and sulky plow also to use with a single horse. Years ago we had two horses that he teamed together. One was hot blooded and one was cold blooded. The hot blooded mare was half Arabian. She was the cause of more wrecked machienry. So when her better half died we decided to get a real workhorse. Rex is Clydesdale crossed with whatever? He is strong, safe, reliable, and bomb proof. No noise or anything else will spook him. Bill had to remake harnesses and equipment to suit him.

[rambler]

Up here in the north, molboard plowing is very common in my county. Wet soils, hard clay, lots of heavy cornstal residue.

Here you plow in the fall, the ground freezes up all winter & as it thaws in spring & snowmelt & spring rains mellow the ground, you field cultivate it once with a harrow attached to the field cultivator and good to plant it.

Soil is too much clay to disk - back when we did with the little disks, you'd probably need to disk 2x, and harrow after.

It seems things are done different in the south, you don't have the winters. I don't know how you possibly can plow, disk, and plant in 2 weeks, our clay soil would be like bricks trying to do that.

--->Paul

[Yvonne's hubby]

I was thinking about this thread yesterday afternoon while rolling hay... My hayfield is getting a bit thin and needs to be upgraded a bit this fall. I was going over in my mind what I needed to do, and plowing was not part of the equation. I will simply scatter some grass and clover seed (mixed with the fertilizer) and run the disc over it once after I have the hay off the field. The point is this... it depends upon what you are going to plant! If you are going for pasture or common grass hay there is really no need to plow the ground at all. if you are going to raise row crops, and run cultivators then you will need to work the soil a bit more, that usually involves the plowing, disking and harrowing to prepare a good seed bed.

[geo in mi]

Originally Posted by PD-Riverman

My Father and Grandfather taught me many things about farming and using equipment before they Past but I never learned about bottom plowing.

When/why do you need to bottom plow?
Do you disk first or just turn under the grass and weeds?
What do you do next after bottom plowing?
How much time should be allowed between bottom plowing and planting?
If I disk the field good is that as good as bottom plowing?
Any question I left out?
A Student here wanting to learn!!!


Keep in mind, I know how to bottom plow, how to set-up the plow-----bottom plowed many of hours when I was a young guy-----I just Did It when Dad or Granddad said do it. Now I asking YOU questions I should have ask them years ago.


THANKS

When/why do you need to bottom plow? This a a choice made by the soil type, the amount of material in the top part of it, and what you intend to plant. If you have hard, heavy clay, this may be the only way you can get it turned over--especially if it hasn't been worked for awhile. You may have heavy top growth or plant roots like clover sod that needs to be uprooted and turned over--which a disc or chisel plow couldn't do. You may want to plant a heavy rooted crop like corn, and if it is the first crop in awhile, the deep action of the plow will help make a looser seedbed.

Do you disk first or just turn under the grass and weeds? This is another choice made that depends on the density of those grasses and weeds. Sometimes you will chop the top stuff enough, other times the top growth will interfere and not get buried.

What do you do next after bottom plowing? If you plow in the Fall, the weather action will indeed mellow up the soil, keeping in mind that you may also get erosion and nutrient leaching..... In the Spring, normally you do whatever you have to do to prepare a seedbed. This usually involves discing, or harrowing to break down the soil particles and smooth them out

How much time should be allowed between bottom plowing and planting? Ideally, six weeks, to allow the top vegetation to decompose, which will make whatever nitrogen was in the top growth and roots be available for the new planting. There is controversy on this, though. Some say that plowing and burying the vegetation actually seals it off and creates just an anaerobic situation that doesn't make any nitrogen. Usually, the time is more dependent on weather and other field conditions.

If I disk the field good is that as good as bottom plowing? This goes along with the first question. It is a judgment call, based on what you intend to plant, and the top growth, and how long since the soil has been worked. Generally, discing heavy top growth will just create a thin layer of soil, heavily mixed with chopped up carbon material--not too good for the next planting--and usually doesn't stir up the old root growth much. With a light soil and light growth, sometimes discing a couple of times will be enough for the next seeding.

Any question I left out? Yes, several...... but four are quite important. Compaction? Soil erosion? Weeds? Cost? All of which have volumes of methods, applications, and opinions that a person will just have to struggle through....and all of them are dependent on multiple factors that can be only answered by standing on your own soil and making decisions, as you get experience. And that's why farming can be fun and agonizing at the same time.....

geo

[FarmboyBill]

Here, I think I could plow, disc, harrow, and plant all in a L O N G long day lol. Up home in NE Kans, I think it could be done, but I know one could plow one day, disc the next, and plant the third, Which is about all anyone could get done back then anyway.

I find I like to plow as eary in the spring here as I can, as tho there may be a few rains at that time, there small and interspersed. If I can get the plowing done before the heavy rains come, Then, if it does dry up enough that I could get a disc in this sandy ground, but could never pull a plow, I can get the discing done waaay earlier than if I was waiting for the heavy rain season to finish so I could begin plowing. This enables me to get corn planted anywhere between 2 weeks and a month earlier. We couldnt do that at home. All the snow made the ground a morass, and then the rains melted the snow and took over. It wasnt till the lighter rains had abaited enough, say in may that we could get things done. If you didnt have your corn planted by the 1st of june up there, you wernt much of a farmer. Dad was such. He worked, so he should have had money, but for whatever reason he didnt. Either he didnt have the money for gas when it was a good time to plow, or he didnt have the money for seed when it was a good time to plant. Hed always get the money and he always get the crops in, But, we had june corn in most years, id say.

Nother thing I found after years of trying to farm here at the same time and way they farmed up home. Id wait too late to plow, and in trying to get it done, Id be plowing the bottom which has wet spots. I only had my grandads 34 CC Case then, and lots of times id get stuck. Once I took my grandads 34 White 1 1/2 ton truck down to the field which was fine except at the wet spots, hooked a LONG log chain from truck to tractor, started the tractor and put it in gear, with the front wheels pointing a different direction than the truck, and ran to the truck and put it in gear and headed out. The jerk was enough to get the Case out, I ran back and stopped the Case, which had altered the front wheels to be comeing up alongside the truck. By that time, I had realized when the tractor would become stuck, and hopelessly stuck, which was at the bottom of the gear case, and quit trying. So many times I had to hook a chain or 2 onto the plow, get the tractor unstuck, which was generally easy if I didnt wait too long to do that. then pull ahead, and hitch the chain, and pull out the plow. The wet spots might be 20ft wide, and 40ft long at the points where I could get stuck. They were wider at the points where I could either know I was getting into them, and then in a couple rounds the points where I was fighting to get out, to another couple rounds to the point where I was nearly guaranteed to get stuck. And, this with new rears. Well, I finally realized I could get onto the ground alot earlier than folks did up home. Once I realized that, and plowed earlier, plowing was a dream. And lots more fun. Tho, Now, at my age 64. I find that on the first day on a 12 acre field,, and thats generally only say 3hrs thereabouts, I feel like everybody who I ever fought in the SCA got lined up in a double row and beat me as I ran down the line and dying would be a pleasure. The second day, I felt like ther goats had did their stomp dance over me while butting heads together, and dying might be bliss. The third day, I felt like I didnt know if I wanted to live or die, as I seemed to ache more in my soulders and arms than in my feet and legs, The forth day, Like I might live afterall, and the day I finished like, Dang, wish I had another 5 to plow, This wasnt so bad. Discing was easy after finishing plowing, as I had gotten broke in, or out lol