Question about green wood timbers

[JuliaAnn]

We've been hauling lumber and timbers for a small company that owns a sawmill, lumber generally from 1"x6"s all the way up through 12"x12"s. I've seen a lot of it, and I know that most of it appears to be green. The sawmill buys trees--hardwoods which can be anything from sycamore/cottonwood to gum to ash to oak or whatever; and pine. They buy the trees and saw it out. Most of the lumber is going to places that do custom crating for large pieces of equipment---apparently the larger pieces are used when shipping really big, heavy pieces of equipment, which is bolted down to the wood which acts like a sort of pallet or sledge. Basically, most of it is used as dunnage of some sort.

But I like the way the 6"x6"s look. The 12"x12"s are *awesome*. We're thinking about buying a load or two of it to build a cabin or small house out of. We would be buying it at 'wholesale', and depending on what dimensions, we could get a load for under $5000.00 Looking at their BOL, they are charging, for just an example, 6- 12"x12"x12', pine (green) $ 385.00. 10- 8"x8"x12' they're charging $259.00.

Problem--the timbers will most likely be green, or mostly green. For commercial, heavy equipment dunnage use, being green isnt' an issue. But for building a cabin or small house, I know it would be.

Also, the generic term they use for 'hardwood' could contain any number of kinds of wood--from sycamore to oak to gum or whatever else they're calling hardwood. Would it be advisable to stick to one kind of wood (preferrably pine) instead of using different species of trees, which also being green will dry differently?

This is more my brainstorm than dh's right now. He's very open to the idea of buying some lumber/timbers and building a small cabin/house, but I don't know if he's given thought to how to dry the wood first, how long it would take, and any other number of potential issues.

Ideas? Suggestions? Personal experiences? TIA!

[WJSpires]

The wood needs to be dry before you use it to build a table let along a house. At the very least it should be seasoned for a couple years outside (stacked to allow airflow between all timbers and covered) until the % moisture is around 12%. Ideally it should be kiln dried (power or solar) to around 6%-8% moisture.

All wood contracts & expands as seasons and humidity change but getting the wood to a stable lower % moisture will help reduce the damage done by the initial contracting as the green wood dries.

[oth47]

I think you should stick to one kind of wood,whatever you choose because of the difference in drying time and different woods will have different rates of shrinkage.I personally would stay away from gum,green or dry.

[edcopp]

I would hesitate to call sycamore, cottonwood, and pine hardwoods.

[TNHermit]

All old Post and beams were built with green wood. 20% is fine unless you live in AZ,CO (didn't notice) if you want you can stack straight and let it dry for a year but it will be hard to work. Fine if you got the BIG power tools. You can burn up a drill or saw in a big hurry.
I have a complete set of barn framing tools and the old hand tools work better. I built a two story home./shop back in the 80's
If you want to plaster or drywall the inside your going to have to do somethings After it dries.

The big thing will be draft control. No matter how much insulation
you use it could be cold if it isn't sealed up. Trust me i know LOL

You can also use different varites of wood as they did. NOt sure how your gonna do it but things like pegs for M&T should be white oak. The main frame can be oak/pine. Maple will work but not that great neither Birch and other closed grain woods. thats hot to say they haven't been used Generally you can use most anything for rafters but I would stay away from using things like cotton wood for anything.
A lot of things depend on how you are going to do the outside. If you are going to go over everything with plywood and wind barrier you can cheat a little.

What actually happens is the green wood shrinks around any tenons making them tighter. but it all depends on how your going to construct it

[rambler]

Originally Posted by edcopp

I would hesitate to call sycamore, cottonwood, and pine hardwoods.

For sure.

Cottonwood is not going to weather well or long for sure.

I'd think the crating/ skid material tends to be the poorer, cheaper, worthless for other things type of wood. It's a one-way, single use, fairly short term sort of wood, and the 'quality' of the wood as well as the types of wood might well reflect that. I'd look into if this wood will be durable for building a dwelling.

Not saying it won't work, just - look into it?

--->Paul

[JuliaAnn]

Like I said, I'm thinking pine would be a better wood. Sycamore/cottonwood seems like it would be too light, and I don't know if I've ever seen anything built out of gum. The way trees are dying around here, especially the oaks, from this terrible drought, I'd think oak would be a good option too.

Thanks for the info and suggestions.

[artificer]

Typical timber framing has been with green wood. The modern (last decade or so) trend is higher end kiln dried timers. The length doesn't change much, but the width will. Get some timber framing books, and they will talk about designing around the shrinkage.

If you've ever seen older log homes, there is space above the windows and doors. The logs shrink in diameter, and the walls get shorter as they dry. As long as you take it into consideration in the design phase, it can be fine.

Michael

[nc_mtn]

Seems like 200 years ago they were making houses with trees they just cut down, it can be done, but expect it to move and shrink.

[CarolT]

When we built our house in 1978, we sawed the lumber for it on the DH's family sawmill and cured it for a few months. One day we noticed our living room wall was bowed out into the room LOL One of the 2x4s hadn't completely dried and warped. DH cut a notch in it and pullled it back straight and it's stayed still since. We went with all pine, oak is no fun for nailing and, at 18, we didn't have money for screws or a airgun, it was all by hand. But, we're proof you can do it, but, like they said, dry it, and make sure which wood you want to work with before buying it.

[Ozarks Tom]

Hardwood is a generic term for any tree that has leaves (deciduous). Balsa is a hardwood. I agree, go with pine. You probably can check with your state forest products lab to get names of people with private kilns, or the people you're buying the lumber from may know of one close by. They generally charge by the board foot, but that is a whole lot faster and achieves a consistent moisture content throughout the board. One problem with air drying, beyond the time necessary, is that you can get more than one moisture content within the same board. This causes warp & bow, and over time can leave you with some very interesting shapes. In the kiln drying process they allow the wood to "equalize" prior to taking it out of the kiln. Most pine is dried to about 19% - 22% for building. For pine floors you would want about 12%. By my reckoning they are charging you about .45 per board foot, which is a pretty good deal.

[JuliaAnn]

I don't think kiln drying is going to be an option. This would be done as inexpensively as possible. We have room to store the timbers under a large pole shed. Time is not really a factor, so the wood could feasibly sit for 2 or 3 years, maybe longer. DH would have to build some sort of swinging crane to move the wood from the flatbed to the stack, which should not present much of a challenge to him. He's pretty good at welding up things when he needs them.

[CarolT]

Do some checking online. I know I've seen plans for home-built lumber kilns and they're not expensive looking

[houndlover]

We have been milling fir, hemlock, cedar, and maple with our sawmill for years. Lots and lots of locals use it green to build with, no problem. It cures standing. We have a kiln building to dry graded wood - mostly big timbers, which isn't more than 10% of our business - basically a pole building with an outside wood fired furnace and a commercial dehumidifier. My new house is built with green 2X4s, son's cabin is 100% green framing and cedar siding. You go to home depot and buy studs, you can buy graded green or kiln dried, people use either. My husband doesn't kiln dry his furniture quality maple, he stacks it with spacers in the corner of the mill shop, generally uses it about a month after cutting. Going to mill some pine (have to go to eastern oregon to get it) this fall, it will be dried. Shrinkage is different when wood is milled at different times of the year, winter milled wood doesn't shrink as much. Here's a good resource:

http://www.ruraltech.org/projects/co...1_combined.pdf

[Jolly]

I'd air dry it and motor on.

When I was a kid, nobody knew what a kiln dried piece of lumber was...

[nc_mtn]

Virginia Tech has a cool plan for a solar kiln.
I think it takes like 30 day's to do a "load" of lumber. Can't remember how many board feet it was. It was a small amount on the scale you'd need for a house, but perhaps with 2 you could speed up things to closer to a year. May be something to think about

[cab]

generally air dried lumber takes a year per inch of thickness to get to 20% or so moisture where it is fairly stable thereafter. If you plan to use 8x8 or 10 x10 timbers, it will take many years to reach that percentage. You are better off drying it for a year or so and then using it green...that what most do. Just understand you will have movement and allow for it....

[KMA1]

Actually, people used to always use green logs to build log houses with, because it was a lot easier to work with handtools green. My house was built from green hand-hewn logs.

As for what species to use, my first choice would be white oak, due to its resistance to rot, fungus andmost anything else once dried. My second choice of the species you talked about would be tulip or yellow poplar. This species was easy to work, and is resistant to a lot of insects so old Appalachian log home builders say. It was a strong choice after the chestnut blight wiped out chestnut trees in the Appalachians. It is true that the logs will shrink as they dry, but you can frame windoes, doors, interior walls and the roof to deal with the wall shrinkage. You control bowing by selecting straight grein trees wiht no twisting of the grain, then stake them every 4 feet with 0.5 inch diameter steel rods.

[JuliaAnn]

Poplar is not a common tree in this area. What I've seen the most of in these loads of timbers we're hauling is yellow pine (loblolly) and red oak, and to a lesser degree white oak and other oaks. (Even lesser amounts of sycamore and gum and other things I can't identify, probably ash, various hickories, etc.) We're in a terrible drought right now and oaks are dying in droves, everywhere you look. The mill manager said he's been getting more oak of various kinds that died from lack of water (standing dead with all the leaves brown and still attached). So I thought if we were to buy some of these fairly soon we might be able to get oak. Pine is also ok from what I've learned from talking to people around here. There are still lots of old pine log cabins and houses in the Big Thicket that are well over 100 years old, and I know where a dog trot house is outside Nacogdoches that is even older and still inhabited.

Thanks again for everyone's help. I appreciate it.

[KMA1]

Julia,

Still don't know where you are. Yes there are lots of companies that use loblolly pine. However, they do not resist rot or insects well in my opinion. Now, you could use them for the rafters and collar beams, and even interior work, such as panneling, floors and such.

For the walls, I would go with White Oak for at least the first 2 or 3 courses on the walls. Red oak will do all right if you keep it dry with large overhangs and poarchs.

I just re-read your post and it looks like you are talking Texas. It may be dry enough and few enough insects there that pine will work OK. Most of the people I have talked to around here who have owned cabin kits with pine logs had a real problem with carpenter bees in the wall logs. Might be different there.