I think we might be going solar. Your experience?

[Horseyrider]

We went to the energy fair last weekend and a guy who is very local to us and has been in business for eleven years had a booth with quite a deal. The whole crunching it out thing is my DH's bag, not mine; but he's really on the fence. Cost of materials and installation works out to be about $25K, and by spring about $15K comes back from the state and feds in rebates; so total cost (other than tying up the dough over the winter) is $10K to save us about $90 a month. We don't air condition but everything but the heat is electric, and we live in one of the most costly places in the country to use electricity. We run anywhere from a month or two at $80 or so to $200 or more if we're running stock tank heaters and such.

The businessman in DH is having a moderate struggle with the idea that it'd take approximately ten of the 25 warranteed years of life for the things to pay for themselves. That means liquidating some funds set aside for emergencies, and knowing that since our state is broke, we may be waiting a loooong time for the state's share of the rebate. Yet he's also feeling like this is the environmentally responsible thing to do.

Boy, is he teetering on the fence.

Me, I don't really know enough about the technology to have much of an opinion. I told him that I keep the monthly savings and he can have the rebates to try and rebuild the emergency funds that the purchase depletes.

The panels are made by Kyocera. We'd be mounting on the south side of our barn, a 100+ year old structure with a metal roof that is never shaded. It saves dealing with shade and doesn't sacrifice grazing area for the animals. The installer's not thrilled (doesn't like heights) but is willing. He says no sweat running the juice to the house.

Ideas? Opinions? Experiences? Anything to tip the old man off the fence one way or the other?

[mamakatinmd]

How many kilowatts is the system they are looking to install for you? How many kilowatts do you average on your electric bills?

I own a solar business here in Ontario. As a dealer I can get 230 watt panels for about 1.55 a watt so if you are installing a 10kw system panels would cost about 15,500. and the roof mount racking system w/all nuts, bolts, ground lugs etc would cost approx 3500.00. Not including labor charges. So depending on number of panels the installer is not giving you a bad deal.

With more info I could give you better answers.
Kathy

[sticky_burr]

well install your self from http://www.ecobusinesslinks.com/solar_power_kits.htm i am looking at the complete ~3kw system for 1.88 a watt get an installer to make final connection and give it the OK and possibly come out even if your state does $/kw rebate either way probaly cheaper than your getting quoted

[Rick]

Will you tie your system into the grid? If so you won't have to "do without" in times of peak need, and you will benefit from 100 % of the sun you harvest. Otherwise you'd need a genny to be sure you have all of the power you want.

Pros for hubby to ponder: Power available when power is down due to acts of God or TSHTF and no paid workers to run the power plant. KW HOURS will ALWAYS Increase in cost.

While Batteries need replaced, we have 35 YO panels that still work well powering our laptops, recharging cell phones and AA batts, small fans, a light and movies.

[Horseyrider]

Thanks so much for your prompt replies. As to your questions, the spec looks like it says they're supplying a 5550 watt system at the cost of $3.74 a watt. (Thirty panels; does that sound right?) This is a batch of 185 watt Alpha solar panels and a Fronius IG plus 5.0 KW converter. Taxes, shipping, and installation included in the $24,454.00 price.

And get up there ourselves?!?! Nah, ain't gonna happen. (Laughing here.) Our barn is three stories high with a gambrel roof and well, it just ain't gonna happen. Maybe someone younger, handier, and a little crazier could.

It won't supply all our electricity unless we make some major changes in the house; and we do already have a generator backup if necessary for power failures. And yes, Com Ed will buy what we don't use-- at a much smaller price than what they sell it for, of course. I can't remember what we're paying per KWH but I know maybe just New York City pays more. It's horrid.

[akaRach]

I really don't know much about solar set ups but I read what I can. One thing I thought about grid tied set ups was that when the grid went down, so did your solar set up, to prevent energy in the lines?

Please if I'm missing something on this, correct me because it just always seemed like such a drawback for a solar system, imo.

[Danaus29]

akaRach, yes if your system is grid tied and you have no back-up system you will have no power. And in some states you cannot have a grid-tied system.

We are really considering it. Even scheduled an estimate from one company (who then canceled and wanted to reschedule on days I was working). We only would get the 30% federal rebate here in Ohio which applies even if you install it yourself. And if you have a grid-tied system on sunny long summer days your meter really does run backward and you would get a check from the electric company. Dh has a couple really big battery back-up systems (used by businesses when their electric goes out) that need new batteries which while not cheap are still not terribly expensive.

If we had the $$$ to do it we would. With paying for your electric you are just renting the system. When you install panels you buy security against inflation. In the past 20 years we have seen our electric costs almost double. So when you consider the increase in the cost of electric you will be getting a return on your investment sooner than currently predicted.

[texican]

Imho, being grid tied without any backup (batteries) is a lose lose situation. First off, a huge investment, if you have the grid available... you can't compete with the grid. If you have no grid, off grid IS the way to go. I'd never consider a system without a battery backup... Spending a fortune and being at the mercy of 'others' just doesn't make sense. Invest and get batteries, controllers and inverters.

[Horseyrider]

Texican, I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from. I'm not trying to compete with grid, although it shouldn't be too hard as their rates are exorbitant; I'm trying to lessen my dependency on grid. I'm trying to use just a little less of the nuclear power that's generated here in my county, and to use just a little less of the endless trainloads of coal that go to the coal fired plants east of here. Just like the way my neighbors grow Roundup Ready beans and I grow everything organically, I can't control what others do; but I can try and make my little corner of the world a little cleaner and more responsible toward the future.

As I stated before, I do have a generator set up that's capable of running everything essential if we have a prolonged blackout. Since we've only had two prolonged blackouts in almost thirty years of living here (one was about two days, the other was four) then I don't see much call for batteries. Batteries need to be tended to, cycled up and cycled down, and I have enough troubles doing that with my laptop.

Danaus29, I hear ya. Our electric costs haven't done anything like doubling, but they've always been among the highest in the nation. They used to tell us it was because of the high cost of building several nuclear facilities. (Which were of course supposed to save everyone so much money.) Now the nuclear plants are aging, and they're saying they need more dough to build newer ones. I think I want to get out of this headlock.

It looks like the installer will be coming by tonight. Thank you all so much for your input! I really do appreciate it.

[rambler]

Originally Posted by texican

Imho, being grid tied without any backup (batteries) is a lose lose situation. First off, a huge investment, if you have the grid available... you can't compete with the grid. If you have no grid, off grid IS the way to go. I'd never consider a system without a battery backup... Spending a fortune and being at the mercy of 'others' just doesn't make sense. Invest and get batteries, controllers and inverters.

These sort of 'green' ideas tend to be harvesting the government, not the green energy sources.

To encourage greeness, the govt kicks in the difference between regular energy costs, and the cost of one of these green systems.

Photovoltics are expensive, and so can't acutally comete with coal or natural gas mega plants.

So, the govt kicks in about 1/3 the cost, and then everyone is happy, and it will eventually pay out for the owner most of the time, unless you get hooked up with a shyster of a company that installs it.

Likewise the electric and hybred cars & trucks - the govt is paying about $7000 per vehicle for you & I to buy one at 'retail' prices.

And windmills, they have the same 1/3 incentive.

So do geo-thermal heat pump instaltions for your house.

And alternative fuels like ethanol or bio-diesel.

But then you have to play the govt game. You need to set up the system the way the govt specifies it, not the way _you_ want it. Yea, you could hook up your own controller & batteries to the system on the barn roof, but it will need to conform to some strict rules on how it disconnects & seperates from the grid - which is much more costly than it need be, and you need to foot 100% of those costs, not 67% of them. So you fdon't vome out at all then. Just doesn't work out.

Over the decades, such investment in alternatives systems is a better use of govt funds than many other foolish things govt spends money on, but at times one does shake one's head. Tho I'm generally for these programs, since a few generations ago the govt did the same things to establish oil, natural gas, electric grid, whale oil, etc. industries; to find us alternatives they need to give the same leg up to the new crop of new industries.

--->Paul

[rambler]

Originally Posted by Horseyrider

Texican, I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from. I'm not trying to compete with grid, although it shouldn't be too hard as their rates are exorbitant; I'm trying to lessen my dependency on grid.

I disagree. This is about dollars and cents.

The govt is offering you a deal, if you build a system to their specifications, they will give give you a certain payout & cover certain initial costs, and they will make deals with the power companies/grid so it is in their intrest to accept your small amount of electricty for a wholesale cost. With that, you can expect a certain payout over the years.

You will be totally depentant upon the grid, as they buy your small amount of electricty when you are not using much, and they supply you with needed electricty when you are actually using some. When the grid goes off, so does your electric production.

you will be a partner with the electric company/grid that serves you, and you will be a partner with the Govt. The 3 of your are in this together, and so your dependance upon the grid is actually going to increase, not decrease.

Your grid's rates are pretty cheap, considering you get to pull what - 200 amps - on demand at any time, power available 24/7 at your whim, etc. Trying to do that off the grid on your own costs would be a real wakeup as to what power really costs if we all had to do it alone. I know, that doesn't make the monthly bill seem any better tho!

You will contribute a very small portion of electricty to the grid when the sun is shining brightly. The power company will need to deal with that, and see if they can make it flow to someone who needs it at that time. But the power comany still needs to supply you with all the electricty you want any time a cloud comes out, or you turn on a motor that spikes your inrush needs, and on an on.

Your solar panels are basically a nightmare for the power company/grid - it makes their life much more difficult. You create a whole new set of conditions for them to have to monitor to get their power supplies and needs balanced - at the whim of some clouds.

But that is why the govt steps in with free money - see if we can make it work to help supply a small portion of our power needs in this way. It is not eassy or cheap, and won't happen if left to itself - far too costly for any person or company to do much of this by itself.

In no way at all are you stepping away from the grid - you are diving head first into marrying both the grid and the govt in this project.

That doesn't mean it's bad - you just seem to have the typical 'treehugger' misunderstanding of these projects. It works differently than you are thinking. You are becoming the grid....

--->Paul

[TnAndy]

Some misconceptions here on grid tie. You can be grid tied AND also have battery backup for when the grid is down.

I do.

You simply buy a different brand of inverter ( I use Outback ), and it has an extra set of contacts in them that close when the grid tie contacts open ( sensing a grid down situation ). The power continues to flow to my house via a transfer switch, just like having a whole house generator setup.

I am grid ties because TVA pays 12cents/kw/hr OVER retail ( which is about 9 cents ) for every hour of solar I produce...(per 10 year contract)...that means if I produce about 40-45% of my needs, I have no bill.......and haven't had one in months.

But, since I also believe the odds are the grid could go down one day, and be a long time in coming back, and I'm sorta fond of electricity for refrigeration, lights and a few things like that, I wanted the off grid capability also....so I paid the extra for it.

All a matter of what you want.

Horseyrider:

Although you don't list your location, I'm guessing from your comments it's NY State ? If so, something you might want to keep a close eye on is the State legislature and the SREC market ( Solar Renewable Energy Credit ). ( or look it up for your state if you're NOT in NYS ).

SRECs are fairly popular in the northeast states where those states have mandated a certain percentage of generating capacity be from renewable sources by certain dates....and if you are a solar producer, you get credits based on the size of your system (they don't even measure output in systems less than 10kw) and can sell those credits into the SREC market.....often for 20-50cents/kw/hr ! Which makes solar payback get WAY lot shorter.

Read this blog on SREC and keep up with what's going on in your State:
http://www.srectrade.com/blog/tag/ny-srec

[Danaus29]

In Ohio when you are producing more power than you need your grid-tied system makes your meter run backward. You get retail price for your excess electricity. And I did advise the use of battery back-up. You can have both. In fact it is illegal in this county to live in a house that does not have connection to the electric system. Yet there homes here that have grid-tied systems with battery back-ups. A special disconnect is required if you are over a certain level (wattage? not sure, haven't got that far into the research yet) but you also need one if you have a hard-wired generator.

ETA, the Columbus zoo has a "green home" building that has a solar set-up. They were expected to get an overall credit for the power usage in that building. Granted it isn't in real use but it is heated and cooled (with bathroom and kitchen) and had several closed circuit tv displays.

[gila_dog]

I am skeptical about expensive, complicated systems like what you are considering. Assuming it all works properly, with no breakdowns, and assuming the government doesn't stop subsidizing it, and assuming the power company continues to buy your power, etc, etc, you may break even some day. But if anything goes wrong, maybe you won't.

Have you thought about improving the insulation of your house? Better doors and windows? It may be possible to take advantage of some passive solar ideas (south facing windows, interior thermal mass, insulated drapes, passive solar water heater, and such).

Cutting your energy consumption is much more likely to pay off in the long run than investing in a lot of equipment.

Oh, and I'm an electrical engineer. I get my skepticism from long experience. KISS (keep it simple, stupid).

[Gary in ohio]

It all comes down to how much power your use. Unless you have an unlimited budget MOST will need to change your electrical use habits to make solar electric work.

Solar electric is not cheaper than grid, so if thats your goal then look elsewhere.

If your already on the grid then a grid tied system where you keep the grid and built out the solar as you can is most likley the best bet.

Powering lights is pretty low post, powering AC, electric dryer and now a days the electroncis in ones home cost..

[Danaus29]

Not cheaper now. In the long run, maybe. Having a source from which to draw power in an emergency or if the power co decides to limit your usage, priceless.

We won't be doing it to save money because it will take years to pay off the system. Our reason will be future use (although solar cells become less efficient over time but I have a theory about that, testing it now on a very small scale and wishing I could test on a larger scale) and emergency back-up. When the grid is down for whatever reason just having refrigeration and water could make a huge difference. We are all going to have to face the fact that the current grid cannot support continued growth. Sooner or later there will be restrictions on usage or tremendously increased costs.

Has anyone done a cost comparison for solar system with battery back-up compared to a generator? Many people are installing whole house generators so I was curious about the cost difference.

[TnAndy]

Originally Posted by Danaus29

Has anyone done a cost comparison for solar system with battery back-up compared to a generator? Many people are installing whole house generators so I was curious about the cost difference.

I'd venture a guess based on the cost of my self installed 3kw system ( about 20k ) that one could install a 10-12kw whole house generator for about 1/2 to 2/3 the cost......and have 3-4 times the power.

That, however, does NOTpresent the full picture. You'd also have to factor in fuel, cost of, and ( the biggie ) how reliable a source IF the grid went down for a long time. The only way I'd go the whole house generator route is if I had a natural gas well in my backyard.....then I wouldn't even give solar a glance.....but I don't.

[Jenn]

For me, I would say a $25K investment for 6 months pays $500, or 4% interest. Then if you definitely get the $15K back, the $10K still in the project forever earns you 10%, increasing with inflation.

But you never get your investment back though- hmmm, that's like giving someone a $10K mortgage that they pay back over time $1000 per year ($90/mo). Do you want 7.7% interest? That's what you'll get over 20 years if there are no other costs, higher if you end up saving more as electricity costs rise for everyone else but you. Do you think you'll have to move in 10 years with no payback for this investment (my realtor says the house value won't rise, but that might change)? Then you only get about 1/2% on your 10 year mortgage (if there are no price rises). Think 5% is good? 15 years. 4%? 13 years.

So if I am staying over 13 years, with NO rises in energy costs (pretty unlikely), I get a tax free 4% return. I'd take it!

Unfortunately for us with no tax benefits from the state we'd have to spend $45k to save about $2000/ year, or 60 years to pay off 'the mortgage'.

All of this dependent on me having done my math right- pardon if I fouled it up.

[texican]

I'd check with the local utility, to see what there policy is about grid intertie... I talked with mine, back when I finally got a grid connection. I was looking (at that time) a 2K intertie connection, and they'd pay me at wholesale rates, not retail, and most decidedly NOT a premium.

Last time I did the figures, you were looking at spending 20 years worth of electric bills, all upfront at one time, just to have a few appliances working. With the price drops, that figure might be ten years.

Imho, if someone wants to 'feel good', then adding solar to their grid connected home (to lessen their impacts on the planet) is great. But, unless you have a backup system for when the grid goes down, it's just an expensive toy. The payback on a system is measured in decades. A properly designed battery backup will allow you to run your system way into the future. Don't confuse past performance (only a few blackouts in the past) with future events... A Black Swan event occurs, you're grid connected only, you'll have electricity only while the sun is shining... your genny will only last as long as your precious fuel lasts. Having lights and a few appliances on at night, after the grid is but a memory, would be worth it's weight in gold.

I'd never dream of having a grid only solar system... at least get a few deep cycle batteries...

Good luck...

Oh, and check with your state..... some, Louisiana and Florida pay a lot of the initial costs, that... and the federal tax rebates, makes it more palatable.

[Danaus29]

By Ohio law the electric companies are required to buy your "extra" electricity at retail cost. As I originally said though this does vary by state. I know another poster once said their electric co would not allow them to have a grid tied system. That buyback price does make a huge difference. But then in Ohio we don't get a lot of sunshine. Most winter months and on cloudy spring days (99 out of 90 this past spring(joke there)) you would generate little or no power. In the summer with long sunny days you would generate more power than you use unless you have the air conditioner running. On a lot of cloudy winter days even my passive solar heat doesn't work.

TnAndy, yep. Fuel for the genny is the big issue. And you have the additional possibility of theft. That's been happening quite a bit. You'd have to put the genny in an outbuilding which would increase your costs.

Even on my totally gridded system I do have some battery back-up. Not as much as I would like. Once we get rid of a cc debt we plan on getting a better battery back-up and a hand pump for the well.