efficiency vs. sustainability: 2000 acre commercial organic

[Paul Wheaton]

This might be my most important podcast made so far.

This podcast wrestles with some of the toughest stuff about organic, conventional, "conventional organic", permaculture, fukuoka's techniques, efficiency, sustainability and population growth. Not the stuff you would expect.

Helen Atthowe is currently managing a 2000 acre certified organic operation which includes a 5000 member CSA. She expresses that she has doubts about sustainable systems being able to compete with conventional systems.

This is the brutal nitty gritty stuff that 99% of the people with "sustainable" or "permaculture" on their lips have no clue about.

http://su.pr/6AEW3V

[kirkmcquest]

The link doesn't work.

[madness]

Worked for me. Listened to the first few minutes. Gonna have to download it so I can listen while doing dishes tonight!

EDIT: Bwahaha! I just read about your evil empire. Sounds like my exact attitude until I got talked into the blog recently too!

[Paul Wheaton]

Originally Posted by kirkmcquest

The link doesn't work.

I just now tried it and it seemed to be okay. That's a shrinky-link. Here is big link:

http://www.richsoil.com/permaculture...ty-efficiency/

[bruce2288]

I wonder why you actually interviewed this woman. Her main thesis backed by experience and working in various systems, you out of hand dismissed and put forth your I believe this. She said numerous times that sustainability could not compete with conventional. She does not dispute the value of sustainability, organic or local. I think maybe YOU need to open your mind.

[rambler]

Sure, a month of rain so I can't do anything - finally a couple days of non-rain & then you release one of your more interesting podcasts....

Only been able to listen to 10 minutes or so, but she seems to really be on top of things, with a lot of practicality & experience in her background.

I'm all for the backyard garden, and producing your own food. There's a lot bits of land that could produice food instead of lawns, or some such.

But, to eat comfortably 365 days a year, she seems right on target, we need to have the efficient food production & distribution systems that we have now - called the 'big ag' or 'commercial farms' that some rail against.

She just said there is no free lunch, and that about sums it up.

It's real hard to beat a modern 200 bu corn, 50 bu soybean, farm for efficiency & production & sustainability per acre. Much of the 'problems' with agriculture in this country stem from being too productive in the past. Current govt policy, and 'desires' of the non-rural population is perhaps changing that. And it might be a scary future they get for their 'desires'.

I know you're not into debating, just presenting. So, thanks for having a sensible podcast with a valuable message, tho you don't seem so interested in listening to the message yourself.

--->Paul

[Paul Wheaton]

Helen and I argue about stuff all the time. Usually when I suggest a podcast, she wants to go off and do six hours of research first. But she doesn't have time for the research. So the way that I get her on is to show her that I'm turning it while she is in mid sentence and we are in the middle of a .... discussion.

Most of our debates revolve around the both of us googling up a bunch of stuff to prove the other wrong. Nearly every time we do this, it turns out that we are both right, in a way that neither of us had considered.

[trbizwiz]

I would bet that dollar fo dollar, conventional ag is more competitive that sustainable ag. However, take away all th eprograms propping up ag and make each stand on it's on and it may change things. Though the bio fuel thing will fire the need for tons of cheap corn adn beans so who can really tell. It surely is not a simple answer. but food is not cheap because of a free market. IF free market powers prevail conventional ag will have costs more inline with sustainable ag.

[Paul Wheaton]

Originally Posted by trbizwiz

However, take away all th eprograms propping up ag and make each stand on it's on and it may change things.

Are there any plans down that path? Maybe this is one place where the gub'mint can do a little tax-reduction plan.

[rambler]

Originally Posted by Paul Wheaton

Are there any plans down that path? Maybe this is one place where the gub'mint can do a little tax-reduction plan.

Would you make that fair (in my mind anyhow...) and take away all the subsidies for petrolium too, or is it only ag programs you'd cut?

I not congress voted to keep the petrolium subsidies, but voted (symbolically) to cut many of the ag ones - and are working on real plans to cut only the ag ones.

Interesting what we support I guess.

--->Paul

[Paul Wheaton]

I have no objection to cutting that stuff too.

[fishhead]

Our food supply is dependent on oil. When we run short on that or it becomes too expensive our food supply will get really tight. Meanwhile our population continues to explode. 33% increase in our population between the years 1999-2023 and a 50% increase between the years 1999-2037.

There's no possible way we can boost production enough and still keep it affordable.

[Paul Wheaton]

Originally Posted by fishhead

There's no possible way we can boost production enough and still keep it affordable.

I think we can.