Opinions on campground/camping on my property??

[wannabfree]

Overview: I have about 10 acres with nice rectangular property lines with short side being road frontage (N property line). There is nice year round creek at back of property (S Line) furthest from road. Front half has about 4 of the 5 acres cleared with the house, 4 car detached garage-shop behind house offering an added privacy block to the campground area, barn, large yard and about 3/4 acre garden area behind garage-shop. I dont currently have any live stock but can easily add chickens/goats so forth and plan to eventually in nice section that will be perfect for them. I also have great neighbors that are far removed from my property (1 on W side has about 50 acres, 3 across road on N side have at least 100-150 acres combined that meet river on the N sides of their property, and the E and S lines meet up with about 350 acres undeveloped and I have lived here 16 yrs) nice wildlife, great community, no business license requirements so on. Central NC foothills region.

Now about the camping idea - the back 5 acres are wooded and well grown up and would require some select cutting of timbers mostly small pines but some oak and pour some gravel for driveway. Also have great former farm road bed that can access the back half without coming past my house or about 250 ft away I should say. My idea is considering say about 40 tent campsites/ or boon docking for small RV's with very little build out mostly keep it primitive but clean and neat. Maybe a simple open type shower house with solar heated water only at this point. Do Not plan to offer electric or water to any part of the camping spots. Maybe just couple porta-jons at first but nicely landscaped around. Perhaps have horseshoes, volleyball/badminton net, few picnic tables, grill so on. My vision is keep it simple but attractive and clean. I have not checked on cost of insurance but am thinking I might could cover this with simple umbrella policy added to my homeowners. Don't think I need any permits at all for this in NC from I have found so far. The going price for state parks tent camping seems to be $13-20 for no hookups from my internet searching.

All input is valued...with that said - please if you point out problems or dislikes with anything about the plan how about including a suggestion as to how it could be rectified. Sometimes I find it entertaining on this forum how some like to just state the obvious or point fault like there's a prize for it lol, probably myself included at times.

And as for the SHTF scenarios I have considered this and I'm not sure exactly where I stand on it for this idea yet but it can be discussed as well although I am more of the mindset of valuing my privacy and not sure how I will like the idea of campers so close to my home?? But I like the idea of the potential for a strong return on investment - possibly $5-10k investment - example say only 1 camper a day average at $10 a night, for a year is $3600 annually or 5 campers a day average is $18000 annually...could perhaps also increase resell value of the home/campground exponentially if I ever wanted to relocate?? But don't think I will ever want to.

Also my idea is also to say reach out to churches and scout groups to have hopefully a better clientele...

What say you??

[luvrulz]

* Are there state parks close by?
* Bath houses & how far from running water sources? Septic? Need more than one for 40 campsites. One per 10 campsites prob.
* Insurance for guests - liability requirements?
* Food/gas/groceries convenient for guests?
* In the case of an emergency - what then?
* What is there in your area to attract campers? Things to do?

[Gena]

Why do I want to camp in your back yard? Are you close to camper-friendly recreation areas? Is fishing the creek possible and ok with you? You'd have to have some sort of toilet facility, even if it is just a vault toilet, and there are likely some sort of regulations about that and the proximity to the creek.

Are you willing to go break up fights at 3am on the 4th of July? Are you willing to have drunks on your property doing stupid drunk things? If you disallow alcohol, are you comfortable kicking idiots off your property? Is your local law enforcement one that could and would help you with such things if the need arose?

You mentioned not providing any type of water. I understand not having a source of potable water, but no water at all might be a concern with health department type agencies. Then again, if you are supplying a shower house, there will be some sort of water for handwashing and housekeeping.

Once you get animals, keeping idiots and their kids away will be like keeping flies off poop. The animals will get bothered and may even qualify as an "attractive nuisance" legally. A goat nibbles Snookum's brand new $80 tshirt and Mommy is going to want reimbursement.

The money sounds like it could be good, but at what cost to you?

[wannabfree]

Are there state parks close by? - maybe 20-30 miles to closest state park and 10 miles to a RV park that charges $20 for tent camping but really caters to RV's
* Bath houses & how far from running water sources? Septic? Need more than one for 40 campsites. One per 10 campsites prob. - Porta Jons $20 a month x 2 for starters maybe composting toilets later
* Insurance for guests - liability requirements? i mentioned perhaps umbrella policy i'm not sure yet have to talk with agent
* Food/gas/groceries convenient for guests? 5 miles to gas 8 miles to grocery and DG the idea here is primitive clean campground
* In the case of an emergency - what then? 15 miles to hospital - Anywhere in this world I intend to go I could ask that or never leave the house - thats why we have insurance for emergencies and accidents
* What is there in your area to attract campers? Things to do? Winery is very big in my area. But again the idea may be that my niche audience is more interested in getting out into nature ie primitive.

[wannabfree]

what I am describing is certainly not camping in someones back yard - but a nice simple campground - I would certainly want to leave enough treeline to separate my front half of land from the back half - maybe I only do say 30 spots but I think there could be room for 40??

River rafting/tubing and canoes business is just 3 mile drive from my home. And of course fishing.

I agree the animals if I ever add them could be a problem but then again could be a draw - I have been in business for myself for over ten years and feel if this deterred someone from being in business we could just let the government own and operate all businesses. I don't mean that as snippy I'm just saying whats the alternative?

[houndlover]

I doubt your county would allow it, but you best check first. How will your neighbors feel about 40 groups camping on your property - with nothing for sanitation except "a couple of port a johns". Rowdy campers in the backyard? You'll need at least a million dollar umbrella policy - and that might not be enough.

[Alice In TX/MO]

Do you mind drunk folks peeing on your yard and mooning you at 2:00 AM?

Seriously, this happened to friends of mine who live on the road that leads to river access.

If you want the headaches that are inherent in working with the public and the hassles of insurance, bookkeeping, and taxes, GO FOR IT! I have rental houses, and most folks just wouldn't get into rentals. I don't mind it.

Talk to the company that has your liability policy on your farm now.

[wannabfree]

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

Do you mind drunk folks peeing on your yard and mooning you at 2:00 AM?

Seriously, this happened to friends of mine who live on the road that leads to river access.

If you want the headaches that are inherent in working with the public and the hassles of insurance, bookkeeping, and taxes, GO FOR IT! I have rental houses, and most folks just wouldn't get into rentals. I don't mind it.

Talk to the company that has your liability policy on your farm now.

AS STATED - Also my idea is also to say reach out to churches and scout groups to have hopefully a better clientele...

I have had rental property too and hated tenants destroying my houses again this could even be private campground for church groups and scouts and the like.

[wannabfree]

Originally Posted by houndlover

I doubt your county would allow it, but you best check first. How will your neighbors feel about 40 groups camping on your property - with nothing for sanitation except "a couple of port a johns". Rowdy campers in the backyard? You'll need at least a million dollar umbrella policy - and that might not be enough.

This aint Oregon - that was sort of snippy on my part but I'm not big on the west coast and how they generally vote lol sorry. but yes I would certainly have adequate restrooms based on occupancy and I'm already thinking a million in coverage and like I've said I still have to talk with agent. This is simply an idea I've considered for some time but I do value my privacy so I hesitate

[Gena]

Originally Posted by wannabfree

what I am describing is certainly not camping in someones back yard - but a nice simple campground - I would leave enough treeline to separate my front half of land from the back half -

River rafting and canoes are just 3 miles from my home. And of course fishing.

I agree the animals could be a problem but then again could be a draw - I have been in business for myself for over ten years and feel if this deterred someone from being in business we could just let the government own and operate all businesses. I don't mean that as snippy I'm just saying whats the alternative?

My tone earlier did not come off as I intended. I apologize. By asking why I wanted to camp in your back yard, I simply meant what is the draw to camp on your property. No sarcasm at all. When we camp, we go to a little lake and use the walk-in camping area. All tents, no generator noise, no having to hear the nightly news at full volume. But we also have access to swimming, trail walking, fishing and the like. So the idea of a private primitive campground is appealing to me.

What about marketing it as a "youth" or "group" campground. If you catered more to groups wanting a retreat of some sort that might spare you a good bit of the idiots. Building a pavilion would be the only added expense over what you're already thinking. (ETA: either I suck at reading or you added to your original while I was responding LOL!)

[wannabfree]

Originally Posted by Gena

My tone earlier did not come off as I intended. I apologize. By asking why I wanted to camp in your back yard, I simply meant what is the draw to camp on your property. No sarcasm at all. When we camp, we go to a little lake and use the walk-in camping area. All tents, no generator noise, no having to hear the nightly news at full volume. But we also have access to swimming, trail walking, fishing and the like. So the idea of a private primitive campground is appealing to me.

What about marketing it as a "youth" or "group" campground. If you catered more to groups wanting a retreat of some sort that might spare you a good bit of the idiots. Building a pavilion would be the only added expense over what you're already thinking. (ETA: either I suck at reading or you added to your original while I was responding LOL!)

I really didnt see your answer as sarcasm I was just trying to help others get the complete picture too - The youth/group thing is exactly more what I have in mind or feel that I could deal with so close to home - I was probably editing to help those just reading it to get a better feel for the idea - Thanks for the input and ideas Gena as I think you were the first to present possible solutions/recommendations to head off potential problems.

[DamnearaFarm]

Originally Posted by wannabfree

AS STATED - Also my idea is also to say reach out to churches and scout groups to have hopefully a better clientele...I have had rental property too and hated tenants destroying my houses again this could even be private campground for church groups and scouts and the like.

You've obviously never worked in a service industry (lodging or food) and taken care of one of the above groups. Either one (and usually the church group) ranks really low on the list of folks well liked by someone who caters to the public.
Wasting of food and resources, flaunting rule-breaking, noise level (don't care if it's gospel songs you're singing or not, at 3 a.m., NOTHING sounds good to your neighbors), general disrespect.... it goes on and on.

We live very close to TN's largest tourist area and largest Christian college and have had ample opportunity to see it all, and trust me, pretty it ain't.

If I were bound and determine to do this, i'd rather market myself to the general public and have restrictions on stay-length in addition to other rules.

[Our Little Farm]

It could be good, or it could be a nightmare.

You have the right idea in horsehoes, maybe offer grills etc too. Picnic tables.

I think you need to consider who you want to attract. If it is church groups, 4h groups, scouts etc then talk to someone in that field to see what they would want to find on arrival.

I'd take primitive over an RV site any day!

[wannabfree]

Alice I hope you and the others find this amusing because it true but as to the

Do you mind drunk folks peeing on your yard and mooning you at 2:00 AM?

I am enjoying a beer and just walked outside without even thinking and peed in the backyard seriously. But it did just rain so I don't have to worry about the odor and besides it saved on flushing the toilet lol. I guess this is one of the luxuries I may lose if there are campers in the area because as for right now you can't so much as see another house from mine.

But anyway back to some chores I'll check in periodically to see if you guys can get this thing figured out for me haha.

[wannabfree]

Originally Posted by RamblinRoseRanc

You've obviously never worked in a service industry (lodging or food) and taken care of one of the above groups. Either one (and usually the church group) ranks really low on the list of folks well liked by someone who caters to the public.
Wasting of food and resources, flaunting rule-breaking, noise level (don't care if it's gospel songs you're singing or not, at 3 a.m., NOTHING sounds good to your neighbors), general disrespect.... it goes on and on.

We live very close to TN's largest tourist area and largest Christian college and have had ample opportunity to see it all, and trust me, pretty it ain't.

If I were bound and determine to do this, i'd rather market myself to the general public and have restrictions on stay-length in addition to other rules.

Already mentioned I have had rental property and yes I have actually owned two small restaurants previously in addition to other ventures but now work from home. While I know Christians are not perfect because I am one but at least with small to medium groups they will be supervised as opposed to just say a rowdy group of non believing hell raisers regardless of the party size. But I'll take Christians over non-believers if I had my druthers at least I know they have some convictions about themselves and behavior no matter how early they are in their walk. I don't mean to imply that I don't love non-believers as well and am concerned about their eternity but I won't bash Christians as a group for simply having some bad eggs. You are absolutely right though on restrictions (noise and no alcohol to name a couple) and stay lengths and I can easily enforce that being so close.

[wannabfree]

Just for fun as well - does anyone have any name ideas for such a campground??

[tiogacounty]

I recently did business with a guy who had the financial ability and desire to buy an existing campground with a maximum budget of $1,000,000. What he found was pretty amazing. He did quick reviews of roughly seventy five campgrounds for sale, and eliminated 50, or so, before he even bother to make a site visit. He then reviewed the operations of 26, including flying around the lower forty Eight states to visit quite a few. The bottom line? Most were, at best, marginally profitable, and it would of been impossible to make a business case for getting a loan on any of them. He ended up buying a thriving dog grooming business instead.

Most folks do not realize that a campground that is 100% occupied on a holiday weekend, may end up being 7% occupied on a weeknight in early summer. They also do not have any concept of how expensive it is to operate, or how little profit there is.

In PA, many campgrounds located any distance from a hot tourist area (Hershey, Amish country, Poconos, Gettysburg, etc) have become places where the majority of the income comes from seasonal rentals. that being folks that sign yearly leases and leave their rigs in place. As you might imagine, there is no real market for seasonal sites without at least water and electric hook-ups.

Bottom line? As a guy who regularly RVs from Florida to California and even places like the Yukon and Northwest territories, a campground needs a lot more than you are interested in doing to really make even a marginal profit. A good location, 40 or more sites, full amenities (30&50 amp power, water, cable TV, wi-fi) good interior roads, and more, or it doesn't stand a chance.

[wannabfree]

Originally Posted by tiogacounty

I recently did business with a guy who had the financial ability and desire to buy an existing campground with a maximum budget of $1,000,000. What he found was pretty amazing. He did quick reviews of roughly seventy five campgrounds for sale, and eliminated 50, or so, before he even bother to make a site visit. He then reviewed the operations of 26, including flying around the lower forty Eight states to visit quite a few. The bottom line? Most were, at best, marginally profitable, and it would of been impossible to make a business case for getting a loan on any of them. He ended up buying a thriving dog grooming business instead.

Most folks do not realize that a campground that is 100% occupied on a holiday weekend, may end up being 7% occupied on a weeknight in early summer. They also do not have any concept of how expensive it is to operate, or how little profit there is.

In PA, many campgrounds located any distance from a hot tourist area (Hershey, Amish country, Poconos, Gettysburg, etc) have become places where the majority of the income comes from seasonal rentals. that being folks that sign yearly leases and leave their rigs in place. As you might imagine, there is no real market for seasonal sites without at least water and electric hook-ups.

Bottom line? As a guy who regularly RVs from Florida to California and even places like the Yukon and Northwest territories, a campground needs a lot more than you are interested in doing to really make even a marginal profit. A good location, 40 or more sites, full amenities (30&50 amp power, water, cable TV, wi-fi) good interior roads, and more, or it doesn't stand a chance.

Tioga thanks for the input. I have myself owned RV's but also enjoy tent camping and know they are two entirely different markets and I also have even looked at buying a 175 site lake front RV campground (Lake Hartwell, SC) about 6 yrs ago and decided against it based on similar info as to yours because of the debt service issue. But I think you miss some of what I am saying in that I am not looking at a RV campground but more primitive secluded tent camping mostly. So my niche market is not what you describe. And I already own my place free and clear and simply like the idea of making the back half of my property more user friendly to myself with perhaps a $5-10k investment and having the potential to at minimum provide the income to pay my rather minimal property taxes as per today's standards (even with as little as 1% occupancy avg yr round with 40 sites understanding that winter is essentially closed or non productive - and if in doing so that in itself would prove to be an extremely good ROI long term) but have the potential as well for more than that in targeting the correct niche market. And as I work from home already the overhead/operating budget would be very minimal in comparison to your $1,000,000 example. My post is more specifically addressing the idea of adding a campground to what is already my homestead/retirement destination and the pros and cons of such in having campers here in close proximity in exchange for the return on investment including improvements to my land which I may not have adequately expressed in my original post but have and am trying to clarify now through editing. Thanks again.

[halfpint]

My parents owned a campground for about 15 years. There was no privacy as people would come to their door any hour of the night usually without a good reason. The reason my father was able to purchase the campground at a good price was that the previous owner did not have sufficient insurance and lost the campground over a liability lawsuit. Anything that happens on the property is cause for a lawsuit. If you do this, I would separate out the land that is for the campground, and create a limited liability corporation for the campground. In my parents experience, scouting groups were normally great campers. Not so much so for church youth groups.

Dawn

[Our Little Farm]

Originally Posted by tiogacounty

Bottom line? As a guy who regularly RVs from Florida to California and even places like the Yukon and Northwest territories, a campground needs a lot more than you are interested in doing to really make even a marginal profit. A good location, 40 or more sites, full amenities (30&50 amp power, water, cable TV, wi-fi) good interior roads, and more, or it doesn't stand a chance.

That kind of place I would avoid like a plague. Give me a primitive campground like the OP suggests over what you wrote any day.

As for the amount of campers. I would prefer to go to a place with plenty of space between sites rather than be crammed in. Better for safety reasons too.