low water pressure, any thoughts?

JanS · #1 05/11/11, 08:36 AM

Last week I noticed our water pressure - already not that great - had gotten worse. The whole house filter was overdo for changing so I took care of that, not really thinking it was the problem, but there was a big improvement afterwards.

On Sunday the chain in the toilet caught. It kept running and the well went dry. An hour or two later we had water again, no problem. I was out and about so it wasn't till later that I noticed the water pressure was the worst it had ever been. Did it happen directly after the water ran out? I don't know.

I had turned on the kitchen faucet and noticed it there. I remembered that a lot of dirt and debris had come out into the tub when the water first came back and thought some of it might be caught in the kitchen faucet. Took off the aerator; all looked fine. That's when I checked and found the problem wasn't just in the kitchen.

Monday the plumber was coming for another issue. I had him look into this. His first thought was a problem with the well but after testing he felt it was okay. I asked him to look at the filter and the connections to it in case I'd done anything wrong there. Nothing. Asked about debris in the pipes. He said maybe, but fixing it could mean taking apart the pipes at every connection in the house. I was already writing him a huge check and it has been an expensive couple of months, so I let it go for now.

It's really bad though. Filling the tub takes so long that I have to heat water on the stove because the tub has grown cold by the time it's deep enough to use.

Going by all that has happened - the well running dry, changing the house filter - doe anyone have any idea of what the problem might be and how it can be resolved? Thanks!

P.S. - thinking about how changing the filter seemed to help, yesterday I changed it again. The one I installed last week was already pretty dirty looking.

paintlady · #2 05/11/11, 08:48 AM

It might be your pressure tank.

#3 05/11/11, 08:58 AM

If your pressure tank has a drain valve on it ( most do ) open the valve & see if you have good pressure there or not . Does the tank have a pressure gauge ( most do ) , if it does how much pressure is showing on the gauge ? Does the whole house filter have a bypass setting ( some do , some don't ) , if it does try setting it in the bypass position . If it is debris in the water pipes it should be fairly easy to blow them out using compressed air .

JanS · #4 05/11/11, 09:08 AM

No bypass on the filter, I did think of that. Will check for a drain valve. There is a pressure gauge, the plumber said it was starting and stopping when it should. But seems to me it's taking longer than it used to to get up to the starting point.

Thank you both for your replies.

Darren · #5 05/11/11, 09:22 AM

The dirt and debris would seem to indicate that the low water level in the well stirred the loose material up. Then the pump sent it through to your filter. Depending on the micron size of your filter you could have stuff throughout your system. If you have a clear filter housing it should be easy to check if the well still has muddy water. I'd check that often and clean it. If you have some water stockpiled, use that to also clean the filter until the water clears.

Is the filter before or after your pressure tank?

Nomad · #6 05/11/11, 09:32 AM

My first thought was also the filter since the well went dry and the pump probably sucked up a lot of stuff from the bottom. I guess a plumber would know best.

Nomad

JanS · #7 05/11/11, 09:58 AM

Yeah, you'd expect the plumber to know. On the other hand, it was 2 pm and he hadn't had lunch and the office was calling him to say they needed him back soon. So this was all hurried and AFTER he'd been paid.

There is no valve on the tank itself although I did see a sticker warning that a pressure valve should be installed between the pump and tank. It was not. There is a drain faucet after the tank, I imagine that's not the same thing and couldn't get it to turn anyway.

I wonder if I can bypass the lack of a bypass on the filter by taking the filter out and letting water go freely through the casing?

Harry Chickpea · #8 05/11/11, 12:31 PM

Don't bypass your WW filter unless you want another set of problems.

The dirt and crud might be eroding away the impeller in your pump. If the impeller doesn't fit tightly against the pump casing, then it can't build up pressure as easily. That would explain both the longer run times and the excess of dirt.

You don't mention whether the pump is a submersible or a jet pump. I'm guessing submersible.

As for fixing the low pressure, I would likely take an unconventional approach - install a storage tank like a 300 gallon polyethelene transfer tank, AFTER a five micron whole house filter, then use another booster pump on that filtered water for household use, putting the pressure tank AFTER the cistern storage and booster pump. Know that eventually the main pump is going to need replacement, but if it doesn't have to work against a pressure tank you'll be able to use it a lot longer.

This type of setup will require a float valve in the storage tank to power on and off the well pump, and at the same time I would install some sort of self-resetting timer, so the well pump can't go on more than five minutes every six or twelve hours, depending on the well. The booster pump alone will come on as you need it while using water.

What are the advantages of all this added complexity?
1. Your well will not be as stressed, and you will get less sediment going through the well pump.
2. Your well pump will last much longer.
3. In addition to the filtering of the five micron filter, the storage tank will allow some sedimentation and further cleaning of the water.
4. Your household pressure will be higher and more reliable.
5. You won't need to worry about running out of water or running the well dry when using a lot of water in a short period.
6. You'll have a water storage spot for purchased water if your well does run dry or you have a well problem, giving you time to examine and fix without the pressure of urgency.
7. You'll have a place to give your hamsters a swim (just kidding)

ghmerrill · #9 05/11/11, 03:23 PM

One other possibility is that the bladder in your pressure tank is leaking. It should have a valve somewhere that looks like the air valve on a tire. Turn your pump off, drain the pressure tank, and use an air gauge like you would use for a tire to check the air pressure in your tank. There should be a sticker on the tank saying how much pressure should be in it. If its low, the bladder most likely has a hole, and you will need to air the tank up.

Without a sufficient air charge in the tank, the only pressure you will have is from the pump directly, which could be your problem. This makes your pump work more, and can cause excessive wear on it.

agmantoo · #10 05/12/11, 01:04 AM

Do you have a faucet anywhere in the water system ahead of the filter? Is so, run the pump until it turns off and they open the faucet on the well side of the filter and observe the pressure. If the pressure is good there then the filter is clogged again. Is there a pressure gauge at the pump itself? If so, what is the turn on and turn off reading when the pump cycles? If this a dug well or a bored well? If it is a dug well how far is the foot valve off the bottom of the well? The pump is above ground isn't it? If so read the horsepower rating on the motor and post same here. What size it the storage tank? Is it a bladder tank? Let the pump run until the pressure switch turns to pump off. Then open a faucet and catch the water and observe when the pump turns on and report how much water you caught in the container during this cycle.

tinknal · #11 05/12/11, 03:44 AM

You should be able to tell where the problem is just by observing the pressure gauge. With the pressure tank full (pump not running), turn the water on in the house, then watch the pressure gauge. If the well does not maintain pressure then the problem is with the well or the pump. If it maintains pressure the problem is between the pressure tank and the house.

agmantoo · #12 05/12/11, 09:35 AM

tinknal
What about the pressure differential between the off cycle and the on cycle. A pressure drop will be observed on a working well and the problem with low pressure can remain.

tinknal · #13 05/12/11, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agmantoo

tinknal
What about the pressure differential between the off cycle and the on cycle. A pressure drop will be observed on a working well and the problem with low pressure can remain.

IT seems that the OP is having pressure problems constantly, as in pressure tank full and pump not running. If the tank is full (assuming that the tank is in good working order) shouldn't they at least have good pressure when the water is first turned on?

Farmerwilly2 · #14 05/12/11, 05:41 PM

I think the thing to do before chasing your tail in circles is to figure out if the problem is one of pressure, or of flow. They are not the same thing. If I'm remembering corrrectly they would be considered an inverse proportion (that's a fancy pants college way of saying that as one of them is high, the other will be low). Since fancy pants answers just hack most regular folks off I'll go with a good ole boy explaination.
The flow in the pipe is going to be how much water is getting through it. The pressure is going to be the amount of force in the pipe. When you turn off the water, the pump runs, builds up air pressure in the bladder, which in turn presses against the water---that is the pressure. When you open the valve, the pump starts water flowing through the pipe. If there is something restricting the FLOW of water, the volume coming through the pipe decreases over a given time. Restriction could be a plugged or partially plugged line (hence the reason to take apart the pipe joints and look for restrictions), undersized pipe (not likely here, unless the pipe has gotten really goobered up with mineral deposits over the years). Pressure will drop when the flow begins (part of the inverse thingy), that's the physics of it. As the flow gets restricted the pressure will build up again.

Now that's a whole lot of behind the scenes stuff you probably could care less about, but it might help someone else in a similar situation. In your case I'd be doing my checks at two different places, where the water leaves this filter setup and where it enters this filter. I choose this spot because this is where you first changed the setup. If you have a lot of water flowing to the filter, but less leaving it, you've found where the restriction is. If it is coming out just as well after the filter then you'd need to look further downstream. Does this water go through an old cruddy looking shut off valve? Might be the next place to look. Someone else had mentioned a gauge on the system. If you don't have one might be a good investment to have one on the down side of the pump/bladder setup to know what kind of pressure it's providing. Too high a presure is hard on valves and soft lines.

Tracy · #15 05/12/11, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Chickpea

Don't bypass your WW filter unless you want another set of problems.

The dirt and crud might be eroding away the impeller in your pump. If the impeller doesn't fit tightly against the pump casing, then it can't build up pressure as easily. That would explain both the longer run times and the excess of dirt.

You don't mention whether the pump is a submersible or a jet pump. I'm guessing submersible.

As for fixing the low pressure, I would likely take an unconventional approach - install a storage tank like a 300 gallon polyethelene transfer tank, AFTER a five micron whole house filter, then use another booster pump on that filtered water for household use, putting the pressure tank AFTER the cistern storage and booster pump. Know that eventually the main pump is going to need replacement, but if it doesn't have to work against a pressure tank you'll be able to use it a lot longer.

This type of setup will require a float valve in the storage tank to power on and off the well pump, and at the same time I would install some sort of self-resetting timer, so the well pump can't go on more than five minutes every six or twelve hours, depending on the well. The booster pump alone will come on as you need it while using water.

What are the advantages of all this added complexity?
1. Your well will not be as stressed, and you will get less sediment going through the well pump.
2. Your well pump will last much longer.
3. In addition to the filtering of the five micron filter, the storage tank will allow some sedimentation and further cleaning of the water.
4. Your household pressure will be higher and more reliable.
5. You won't need to worry about running out of water or running the well dry when using a lot of water in a short period.
6. You'll have a water storage spot for purchased water if your well does run dry or you have a well problem, giving you time to examine and fix without the pressure of urgency.
7. You'll have a place to give your hamsters a swim (just kidding)

This is exactly our set up and it works perfect.

JanS · #16 05/15/11, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinknal

IT seems that the OP is having pressure problems constantly, as in pressure tank full and pump not running. If the tank is full (assuming that the tank is in good working order) shouldn't they at least have good pressure when the water is first turned on?

We get a gush of water for a minute, then it tapers off. This is what made me think of a blockage....it's as if the water is building up when it's not in use but that flow isn't maintained.

We had NO problems before the running toilet drained the well. That's why I didn't think this was a bigger problem like the pressure tank.

No progress as both vehicles went down this weekend when we were dealing with the big track meet, prom, and getting one of my daughters to the airport, among other things. I haven't had time to give it a thought other than a few choice mental curse words every time I need to fill the bath.

Edited to add: just read FarmerWilly's explanation and that's exactly it. I too lean toward debris in the pipes. Mineral deposits are a possibility. Having better water flow after the filter change could have knocked some of that off and moved it to where it would cause trouble. I'm going to call a plumber in although it will not be the $120/hr guy who changed out the faucet.

HeelSpur · #17 05/15/11, 06:30 PM

Do you have a low water cut-off pressure switch? If you don't it sounds like you need one.

PNWest · #18 05/15/11, 07:52 PM

It is possible you might have sand and gravel clogging the well point sand screen.
Especially as the well ran dry, the pump would have tried to pull water/going dry flow through the screen.
In our case, the only way to increase the flow, was to pull the pump and stem and install a new sand screen. Spendy way to repair.

JanS · #19 06/15/11, 04:29 PM

Thanks again for the advice. It's fixed now although I still don't know what the problem was. The plumber was out last week and his first question was whether I'd been keeping up with changing the water filter. It did look pretty dirty again even though it had been changed a couple of weeks ago...which I took as stirred-up sediment and a possible blockage.

In the meantime we had lost hot water and he set to figuring that out. Changed the thermostat and one element with no luck. He couldn't get the other element out to change - not too surprised since I'd been unable to get it out myself. Next day he came out with a new water heater. He felt the water softener was causing a problem and removed it (we don't use it anyway) and took out the filter. One of those things, or maybe the pipes he changed out while installing the water heater, took care of the pressure problem. $530 and we have hot water and the best water pressure we have ever had. We're having to be alert about not overfilling the tub and that kind of thing. It happens so fast. It's great.

I'd like to know what the problem was but oh well. Still haven't replaced the filter, hope nothing goes wrong when I do.

artificer · #20 06/15/11, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JanS

...
He felt the water softener was causing a problem and removed it (we don't use it anyway) and took out the filter. One of those things, or maybe the pipes he changed out while installing the water heater, took care of the pressure problem.
...

Was there a bypass valve on the water softener? Was it in bypass mode? If not, it can act as a filter. The water softener might have been plugged with the muck from the well, and slowed the flow/pressure.

I would still check for a water logged tank, or check to see that the pressure was set correctly. If the tank is set up properly, you should get more than just a brief shot of high pressure water. The tank should have a label that tells you what the drawdown rating is. (how much water it will supply before the pump kicks on) If the water softener was after the tank, then a plugged softener will still be the most likely problem.

Michael