Fire retention ponds

[longgravelroad]

I was approached by my county and fire chief about using a pond on my property next to the road as a fire retention pond. The county is offering to install a dry hydrant and put a loop off my drive way to access the hydrant (about 100'). Right now there is just a single lane track that they have to back down with there brush truck or carry a portable pump to the pond for water access.

When we built on our property 4 years ago we installed a 15,000 gallon cistern with a dry hydrant near our house. We also installed sprinkle systems in our house, guest house, and garage to lower our insurance cost.

I know that putting in the dry hydrant in our pond will improve fire departments capabilities in the area. I also have a feeling that this is step one of my property value going up. It's a privet hard pack road with 7 families. Most of the road is owned by the farmer across the road and myself. We both have only granted easement of access only.

Wednesday we are having the farmer access the street over for dinner to get his thoughts. Last year one of the home owners tried for months to talk us into a utility easement but we wanted nothing to do with it.


I know there are lots of issues that need to be thought about before I make my decision. I would like to hear other peoples thoughts. If you have property that has a dry hydrant that the fire department uses have you had an unexpected issues?

[arcticow]

Since you already have a dry hydrant, sounds like someone is looking to "open up" your area to development. Things that look all nice and for the public good, are the first things that are used to very quietly stick a foot in the door. The more dvelopers can get the county, etc. to do for them the better, plus it keeps them invisible till they wish not to be. Sorry to sound so negative and suspicious, but have seen this way too many times...

[plowjockey]

We were burning grass last spring (in control), but someone called the VFD.

While they were here we talked about adding a hydrant to our pond. I believe they said either the DNR or SWC district could foot the bill. The pond water could be used in a fire emergency, wherever needed.

We have not pursued it futher yet, but was told that you may get lower homeowers insurance, for having the emergency water available.

Did not seem like that big of deal and it seems doubtful that they would use it rarely, if ever. I see them at other ponds but have never seen them used.

Worth considering, IMO.

[idahodave]

Around here the fire department wants to charge subdivisions for a required annual test of a hydrant's flow. You might find out who's responsible for testing and maintenance and include that in the agreement.

[Darren]

A 15,000 gal cistern is not much water. Depending on how fast the fire dept. can get to your place, you might be ok. If the fire isn't reported fast enough and it gets through the roof, you have a very bad situation. BTW, the pumps on some engines can run 1,500 gal/min. If that was the case, your cistern would last ten minutes if it was full. If you have several outbuildings close together, the more water the better since the fire dept will have to keep them wet in the event of a fire at your place.

We have dry hydrants at a couple loctions in this county. I don't know of any property issues.

[tnokie]

I would want to make sure that the acess didn't open up your property and/or pond to the public. If they maintain an acess drive to it they may claim free acess at anytime,like when the fish are biting!
I feel like someone else said ,that thye may use it as a step to open up the area for further development or claimed acess.

[ryanthomas]

It should lower your insurance further, since it's more water supply than your cistern. May raise your property value. Are you hoping the property value goes up so you can make a profit, or stays down so your taxes don't go up? Depending on your property, you might also want to discuss with the fire department other options for the location of the hydrant. They don't have to be placed right next to the pond, but if they're farther away then they may need bigger pipe and obviously will require more excavation.

[Old Vet]

Having been a fire fighter for several years I will tell you that we rarely used a dry hydrant except in a real emergency. They are hard to get primed and the water is not the best. The road crew use them more than firefighters but if they need the water they will get it anyway they can. I wouldn't hesitate to give the permission to put in a Dry hydrant.

[stamphappy]

I wonder how much of your land would need to then be an easement whereby the government can, whenever they want, use that easement?

My neighbor has an easement in the back of her property. The easement is for a dirt road that goes down to a county owned drainage pond. The county can't access the pond except through my neighbor's property. She is not allowed to fence the easement area or do anything else to the easement. For instance, if she wanted an outbuilding on the back of her property, she is not 'allowed' to because it would cross the easement.

In our area, we do not get any property tax breaks for having an easement on our property.

[Old Vet]

Originally Posted by tnokie

I would want to make sure that the acess didn't open up your property and/or pond to the public. If they maintain an acess drive to it they may claim free acess at anytime,like when the fish are biting!
I feel like someone else said ,that thye may use it as a step to open up the area for further development or claimed acess.

That is covered in the agreement and no nobody can fish without the owners permission although some people think they have the right to fish anywhere. The Fire department is the ones that test the hydrant but without pressure it only means that you can get to the water and no body filled it with rocks. The fire department only test them once per year and they do not charge for the inspection because it takes only 5 minuets to inspect it.

[Old Vet]

Originally Posted by stamphappy

I wonder how much of your land would need to then be an easement whereby the government can, whenever they want, use that easement?

My neighbor has an easement in the back of her property. The easement is for a dirt road that goes down to a county owned drainage pond. The county can't access the pond except through my neighbor's property. She is not allowed to fence the easement area or do anything else to the easement. For instance, if she wanted an outbuilding on the back of her property, she is not 'allowed' to because it would cross the easement.

In our area, we do not get any property tax breaks for having an easement on our property.

The fire department doesn't need an easement that is covered in the state law. The rest of the government may need it except in an emergency. Once the fire department is called out they can go any where and do what is necessary to put out a fire or give medical aid even cut a fence and go in the property.

[longgravelroad]

articow
I have the same feeling as you do with someone down the road from me to split up the land and sell it. I have a feeling it's the guy that was trying to get a utility easement. If you give a man an inch they will take a mile.

plowjockey
Between us having our 15,000 cistern and having sprinkle systems we would not get any more insurance discounts. I do know that putting a hydrant in at the pond would lower rates for about 5 miles around me. They told me that if the paper work gets done in time a federal and state grant would cover the cost.
I have seen our fire department pass up real hydrants in town that are 400' from a fire and truck water in with tankers.

idahodave
That's something that I did not even think about. I have to get my cistern tested every year. They have to be able to draft 250gpm for 80% of the tank volume. Last year the test cost me $100 and $500 to refill the tank.

Darren
Yep most pumper trucks can pump 1,500gpm from there tank wide open not pushing any real water presser. It's been years but I’m thinking a 2” hand lines uses about 200gpm. I do have a few out buildings but nothing close together. Both of my hay barns are conveniently located with in 500' of the pond.
Look at house fires with working sprinkler, most only have 1 or 2 sprinkler heads go off and the fire is smoldering when the fire department arrives.

tnoki
Never thought about the implied easement or what ever that would fall under. Would defiantly need to talk to a lawyer.

ryanthomas
I talked to my insurance company and it will not affect my bill. I would rather have a lower property value, live off grid, and be able to stand on my porch and pee knowing that someone would need binoculars to know what I was doing. Looking at the information they try to keep the pipe under 12' long.



The more I sit and type the more I know I have made up my mind. When they have needed to access my pond before they just back the brush truck down to it and lay out some hose to get the water to my driveway.

[salmonslayer]

Originally Posted by Old Vet

Having been a fire fighter for several years I will tell you that we rarely used a dry hydrant except in a real emergency. They are hard to get primed and the water is not the best. The road crew use them more than firefighters but if they need the water they will get it anyway they can. I wouldn't hesitate to give the permission to put in a Dry hydrant.

Thanks OldVet, I agree completely. I am a Volunteer Fire Fighter in an extremely rural district and the reason we install dry hydrants is because we have "zero" fire hydrants in the entire district. When we arrive to fight a fire we deploy portable canvas water tanks at the scene, our 5000 gal tankers dump into those so the pumpers can get water to the attack hoses. Then the tankers are sent to refill and the only places they can refill are at the one water tower in the area (which may be a 20 or more minute drive from the scene), a local river if they are flowing or the dry hydrants.

The faster we can turn around the tankers to keep the portable tanks full means we can keep the water flowing to the fire fighters trying to save your property or the property of a neighbor. Its basically just some PVC pipe with some fittings and as Old Vet said, it will be rarely used but when its needed...its really needed.

You would have to assess the situation for yourself. In my district we are a non-tax supported non-profit fire protection association and have nothing to do with the government. You also need to understand that if we need water from a dry hydrant we need water and it would not just be in case you have a fire at your place, if your neighbors place is in danger we may draw water from your pond.

I understand peoples reluctance but I personally think its one of the easiest ways people can contribute to their communities safety and well being. The Fire Chief obviously picked your place because it is in a strategic location and I would encourage you to at least consider his request and think about this...in the city Fire Fighters hook up to a hydrant and there is basically unlimited water, in the country, you have to draw from a farm pond, river, or truck the water in and the water on the pumpers only lasts for about 5 minutes without resupply....dry hydrants are very important to us.

[stamphappy]

Originally Posted by Old Vet

The fire department doesn't need an easement that is covered in the state law. The rest of the government may need it except in an emergency. Once the fire department is called out they can go any where and do what is necessary to put out a fire or give medical aid even cut a fence and go in the property.

Well I didn't know that but it makes perfect sense, doesn't it, since our firemen are protecting and defending in a perilous situation. It's not at all like a utility easement or a storm drain.

Thanks for educating me!

[crispin]

"Last year one of the home owners tried for months to talk us into a utility easement but we wanted nothing to do with it."

I am glad I am not one of your neighbors. You sound very self centered and not very neighborly.
I help my neighbors in anyway I can and expect the same from them. One of yours asked you for months to give him a utility easement and you told him no, that seems real cold to me. Now you wont even let a fire hydrant be placed for free on your property.

You should rethink some. Do onto others as you would like them to do onto you.
Seriously.

[texican]

Are you talking about a pond or a cistern? Or, are they one and the same? 15,000 gallons isn't really that much water... if it were a pond, depending on location, it could easily dry up in a drought.

Personally, if I only had a 15k gallon water source, I'd not allow a 'tap'.

I live so far away from anyone else, doubt the county would ever ask for a tap on my water. As I've called the vol. fire dept. several times, it'd be bad karma for me to deny them any and all water they needed in an emergency event. Also helps the reservoir holds >20 million gallons.

How do you get away with granting an easement for 7 families, without them having any kind of utilities??? Are they living off grid?

[haypoint]

If you do not let them install the dry hydrant, the volunteers in your community will have harder time shuttling water from the pond to the smaller brush truck pump to the tanker, while your neighbor's house burns. Could be one of your buildings that don't have a fire suppression system.

You are all set for an internal fire, but plenty of brush fires destroy homes and sprinklers won't help. Even fire from a nearby building could destroy your house.

I shouldn't judge, I don't know your situation, but to me a utility easement is a tiny thing to do for a neighbor. Yes, I agree you have the power to control that easement and you are free to do as you want. Just seems a bit messed up to me.

I never want to be in a situation where I'd have to say, " Gee, I guess I should have let them put in the dry hydrant. I didn't think the neighbor's house would burn down for lack of a quick available water supply."

[Jan Doling]

Don't let anyone guilt-trip you about not being neighborly. Too often others try to make their lives easier at the expense of someone else. Do what is best for you. They will find another way to solve their issues.

[geo in mi]

I would probably give them permission, but write it into a contract that they will refill it the next day if they use it. Save the house and the fish.

geo

[norcalfarm]

How far are you from hydrants and other large water sources? If you truly want to help the neighborhood, you could cut in the road to the pond as the fire department wants to do but not put in a hydrant. Then if there is a fire, they can pull up and drop in their hard suction, almost as fast as they could hook to a dry hydrant. As stated above, most fire departments rarely use a dry hydrant anyway. This way there would be no written agreement necessary, just a verbal "heads up" that you have an accessible water source for them in an emergency.