Old farm house insulation questions-help!

[greenacres]

I have an old farm house that needs a fair amount of work. With the temps like they have been at night (9 and 10 degrees) and during the day (20) we are freezing. I did put plastic over the windows that I could reach. That helped some. It is supposed to warm up over the weekend and then go back to colder and freezing and wintery mix again. It is a pier and beam house, nothing on the floors. What can I do to it so we can stay there again and not have to stay at my parents? The warmest room in the house is an add on at the back that is insulated. It gets nice and toasty with just a space heater. On another note, the house and acre it is on is paid for. I am trying to figure out the best route to go in fixing it and what to start with. Thanks so much.

[7thswan]

The best way is blown in insulation. Put bales of straw around the foundation on the windy side. You can do it yourself and rent the equipment. Check Home Depot for prices..

[oneokie]

Blown cellulose insulation in the attic.
Expanding foam in exterior walls between the studs.
Remove the trim around windows and exterior doors and fill with insulation, then replace the trim.
Caulk the exterior trim around windows and doors.
Some type of insulation between floor joists. Batt or rigid foam.
What kind of underpinning around the perimeter? Masonry?

[TnAndy]

Having worked on many of that type house with my dad, I can tell you it's near impossible to bring them up to anywhere near what new houses are built like.

Best thing to do is go right out the back door, and build a decent house, paying for it as you go, and tear that one down when you get the new one done. You'll be miles ahead in the long run, both labor and money.

[Waiting Falcon]

I have always felt that insulation never costs it pays.
That said remember this heat rises, cold comes down.
The easiest place to put insulation is in the attic, batts can be laid between the ceiling joists. Blow in insulation can be put in the walls but you will have to make a hole to accommodate the hose between each stud. Some stores will give you the machine to blow the insulation in if you buy x amount of insulation from them.
If you can see what is in the insulated room for insulation and that will give you an idea what will be good for the rest of the house.
The good part is, if you can insulate the cold out now it will also insulate the heat out come summer.
If the house is on pier and beam sounds like you have a solid underpinning - you have checked for termites?
Make sure the openings ,if there are any , are closed in the foundation. If the foundation is not solid- cracks or whatever,- ,try this, there is a product for putting under flooring, it is a thin insulative sheeting maybe 1/4 inch thick. I cut this and put it around the foundation, in a pinch the first year I put it on the outside, it made a world of difference! It can be permanent if you put under the house and tack it to the sills against the foundation.

Probably the windows do not have insulation around them, if they are the original ones.
Pulling the facings off and filling the area with fiberglass will make a big difference.
Do remember to wear long sleeves,and gloves if possible when handling fiberglass, then when you are finished wash with COLD water, never warm or hot.

Congratulations on your debt free homestead!

[ronron]

For the immediate time you can hang quilts, blankets, and sleeping bags on the walls, in doorways and stairways and over windows. Also isolate the rooms you absolutely need to use for the moment and close off the rooms you don't need...I assume the previous owners somehow managed to live here during inclement weather did they have something like a wood stove that has been removed?
We insulated our house very slowly first we replaced the windows and insulated the easy to reach places, the attic and under the house. Then for us as we slowly remodeled each room we tore down the inside walls put up insulation then sheet rocked or what ever wall finish we used in the particular room. we did all the work ourselves and working room by room made it manageable. Good luck it sounds like it's worth it.

[highbridgemom]

Caulk is pretty inexpensive and can help quite a bit. We used a ton at our old house. I would start with that in the rooms you use the most. Add insulation in the attic and remodel, insulating as you go.

Good luck!

[Tarheel]

Agree with TnAndy on this one. I lived in a 1940's, 2 story for 20 years. The thing drank propane 24 hours a day, was nothing to spend $500 a month during the winter and that's been 5 years ago.Nuff of that.

Built new from the ground up, extra insulation, good windows and doors etc. My average utility bill (heat & elect.) is now around $100 a month for a 1750 sq. ft. house.

Build new and pay as you go.

[Tad]

My house is 133 years old, I live in western NY and we haven't seen 30 in weeks. You can do a lot with an old house and unless you are a home builder don't have one built for you. The home inspector said my house will stand longer than anything built in the last 40 years. First go for the attic and basement. The attic is vented with the floor joists filled with fiberglass and then 1/2 plywood over that for storage. The plaster has been torn down and fiberglass put in the walls and then sheetrocked. I don't recomend blown in insulation if the wireing is very old, you best route is tear the inside walls out re-wire if needs be and I would use expanding foam if I were to do it now. I was told with expanding foam in new builds the put in air exchangers because it airlocks the house so tight it is unhealthy. Also good windows are a must. I have a 2,000 sqft house remodeled in the early 80's. I could use newer windows and would rather have foam than fiberglass but it will do for now. I have a wood stove in my basement that will heat the whole house, basement 1st floor and 2nd to about 28 outside temp, after that the gas furnace kicks on some.

[greenacres]

Building from the ground up is easier said than done. Oh how I wish I could do that right now. I have 4 kids, the youngest being 4 weeks old, the others are in elementary school. Working full time is difficult. So, I need to do an as you go kind of thing to get ready for the rest of the winter and the heat of the summer. My ex had this fantastic idea to redo the flooring and pulled up all the old flooring and left the hard wood pine subflooring. There is no insulation under the old flooring, something he never got around to doing. I was thinking of putting new flooring over the old. Trying to decide what would be the most energy efficient. I am also going to replace the windows a few at a time. The outside of the house is wood siding that is covered over with asphalt type shingling. What's the best way to insulate the inner walls then? Thanks.

[TnAndy]

Yep Tarheel..

What most people who know little about construction don't know about older houses are:

1. Poor foundations. In the "good ole days", you didn't call up a ready mix truck and have good, Portland cement based concrete delivered. If you got concrete at all, it was hand mixed on the job, and didn't come close to meeting today's standards. Often as not, the "foundation" consists of a pile of rock, or brick directly on the ground, and the house settles every which way over the years as a result.

2. Balloon framing. Know what that is ? They used to set the wall stud all the way down on the sill, and run them two stories up....then set the floor joists in....which meant you could go upstairs, knock a hole in the wall, drop a marble in the hole, and it would bounce out in the basement/crawl space. Western platform framing took over about WW2 or later, and is a far better method of framing when it comes to energy savings....since air can't flow up the walls.

3. Insulation. Most older homes had little, or none. Why bother, fuel was dirt cheap, and they just "piled on the coal".

4. Wiring.....wow...what a joke some of them are....I've seen houses today STILL using knob and tube wiring. You look at the old insulation on the wires falling off and just wonder "how this place didn't burn to the ground".

and so on and so on.

Unless there is some historical or sentimental compelling reason to restore an 80 year old house, I say live with it until you can tear it down..but DON'T sink a lot of money in a "money pit"

[tamsam]

Our old house was built in 1930 and was built from the logs off the property. There was no insulation in the walls at all. We tore out the inside walls and used fiberglass where possible. Some of the walls were log inside so we had to use 2X4s and insulate between them. We then use osb board for paneling and painted with oil paint. Looks like a straw wall. Over head upstairs and down we used the 4x8 sheets of what I call black board insulation and painted it white. This helps keep the upstairs from getting to hot and heat downstairs. We heat with a wood heater and a propane wall unit for back up. When it was 4 out side it was nice and toasty in here. We have been told the peeps that lived here before us had a kero heater in almost all the rooms and had to wear coats. Maybe a plastic wrap would help for the rest of winter. Good luck. Sam
PS Try some carpet places for ends and pieces of carpet for the floors for now.

[calliemoonbeam]

As someone else said, until you can get permanent insulation, hang blankets or quilts over windows and especially north-facing walls and/or whichever direction your wind blows the hardest. You can staple plastic sheeting over the windows from the inside or outside, or you can use bubble wrap. You just cut the bubble wrap to fit the window, spray the window with water and then press the bubble wrap to the window. It will stay until spring, when you can peel it off, save it and use it again next year. Here's a more complete explanation: http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects...bubblewrap.htm Just pin the blankets over your curtain rods with safety pins or tack them up if you have to, or you can make custom-fit window quilts like I have. Just Google it, you'll find lots of info.

Throw rugs help the floors immensely, even over carpet, even if you have just a few and put them where you sit most to protect your feet from the cold. If you know how to knit or crochet, you can even make your own out of old T-shirts, blue jeans, etc.

As someone else said, close off any rooms you possibly can and heat only those that are necessary. If you don't have doors to close them off, hang blankets or curtains from nails or hooks. If that means having the kids sleep in the living room, make it a fun thing, like camping out, only inside, lol. Use sleeping bags and/or blankets. Set up a small tent in there or make a "sleeping tent" by draping blankets over sofa or chair backs. Their body heat in the enclosed area will add much additional heat. Use hot water bottles or heated bricks wrapped in towels as foot warmers at bedtime.

If you have ceiling fans, turn the switch so that they turn clockwise and run on low or medium speed. You don't want to stir up a breeze, but having them running will pull the hot air (which rises) down and circulate it around, making it feel warmer.

Save your laundry if possible for the coldest days...running the dryer will help heat the house. Eat a lot of slow-cooked meals - simmer a pot of beans, soup, stew, chili, chicken and dumplings, etc. That heat will help also. Baking is good also, bread, cornbread, muffins, cookies, whatever. Make several things at once if desired so you don't feel like you're wasting the energy. You can also use the burners on your stove to help heat if really necessary, if it's a gas stove.

Dress in several light layers, rather than one heavy sweater, etc. Layers trap air and help insulate. Wear a hat! I know it might sound silly indoors, but we lose a lot of heat through our heads, and it really does help. I even have fingerless gloves to wear while I type sometimes (I work at home on the computer) when it gets really cold, may look silly but it works!

I could probably list lots more...have a lot of experience at this, lol, but hopefully these will give you some good ideas. Good luck!

[PhilJohnson]

Originally Posted by TnAndy

2. Balloon framing. Know what that is ? They used to set the wall stud all the way down on the sill, and run them two stories up....then set the floor joists in....which meant you could go upstairs, knock a hole in the wall, drop a marble in the hole, and it would bounce out in the basement/crawl space. Western platform framing took over about WW2 or later, and is a far better method of framing when it comes to energy savings....since air can't flow up the walls.

Easily remedied if you gut the house. It isn't too big of a deal to put in 2x4s between the studs as a fire break.

Originally Posted by TnAndy

3. Insulation. Most older homes had little, or none. Why bother, fuel was dirt cheap, and they just "piled on the coal".

Nothing some blown in will solve or if one is real ambitious gut the house and put in fibreglass insulation.

Originally Posted by TnAndy

4. Wiring.....wow...what a joke some of them are....I've seen houses today STILL using knob and tube wiring. You look at the old insulation on the wires falling off and just wonder "how this place didn't burn to the ground".

That is why you gut 'em. I've replaced a bit of wiring on my place. Some of it was quite scary.

Originally Posted by TnAndy

Unless there is some historical or sentimental compelling reason to restore an 80 year old house, I say live with it until you can tear it down..but DON'T sink a lot of money in a "money pit"

Eh, depends on where you live and how the house was constructed. I've seen some old homes that are built solid as a rock and others that are more shack than house. If you live in an area with a lot of codes and building permits (such as Wisconsin) you are probably better off fixing what you have unless it is a complete dump.

Old houses are like old cars, they aren't for lazy people with thin wallets. One has to be either rich or handy or know people who are handy. Myself, I do most of the work myself and the stuff I don't know my friends or my Dad help me with. I replaced the roof on my house with a steel one for 800 bucks, that was with replacing all the wood as well. I got a bunch of free double pane windows at a garage sale. People throw out a lot of good stuff simply because they want a change.

My own house has next to no insulation. I found that caulking it helped a ton. I also blocked off the upstairs which helps lower the heating bill dramatically. Hay bales help a lot too. My old mobile home I used to put up blankets over the doors. That helped a bit there. Also if all you have is the subfloor I suspect that is where a lot of cold air is coming from. I think you would see a big difference if you just put down some flooring.

[MushCreek]

I've been studying efficient home construction in depth for about 4 years now. It seems like one of the biggest factors is not insulation, but air infiltration (leaks). Insulation is like a knitted sweater- it keeps you warm unless the wind is blowing. Throw a windbreaker over it, and now the wind isn't so bad. Fixing leaks isn't very expensive for materials, but it is labor intensive, which means it is ideal for DIY. If you can stop the movement of air, insulation becomes much more effective. There are cans of foam called Great Stuff. Look for a deal on it, and start sealing stuff up. Now that homes are so snug and sealed up, they're finding places for air leaks that no one ever thought of- holes for wires and pipes, door and window hardware, and traditionally uninsulated areas like the rim joist where the house sits on the foundation. Seal it up first!

[Tarheel]

Originally Posted by MushCreek

I've been studying efficient home construction in depth for about 4 years now. It seems like one of the biggest factors is not insulation, but air infiltration (leaks). Insulation is like a knitted sweater- it keeps you warm unless the wind is blowing. Throw a windbreaker over it, and now the wind isn't so bad. Fixing leaks isn't very expensive for materials, but it is labor intensive, which means it is ideal for DIY. If you can stop the movement of air, insulation becomes much more effective. There are cans of foam called Great Stuff. Look for a deal on it, and start sealing stuff up. Now that homes are so snug and sealed up, they're finding places for air leaks that no one ever thought of- holes for wires and pipes, door and window hardware, and traditionally uninsulated areas like the rim joist where the house sits on the foundation. Seal it up first!

Agree with the house wrap, keep all the air out you can. I personally think the more insulation the better. 2x6 walls if you can, just for extra insulation.
As you say seal, seal, seal- here in Carolina you are required to seal around all holes for wiring and plumbing. I went the extra mile and sealed top and bottom of the holes. The same with the house wrap around window and doors we sealed with a special tape to keep infiltration out.

Now to the rim joist- When I first built the house I installed foundation vents and eventually had a moisture problem. Went back and resealed all vents(closed them up)from the inside of foundation, install new 10 mil plastic on the ground. The plastic was sealed at all the laps and the laps were made with at least 2 feet hanging over. I then wrapped all my piers and sealed them, and then ran the plastic up the wall 2 feet and sealed. Last we sealed the rim joist completely, cut off all the lights under the house and checked for light infiltration-total darkness ! I added a dehumidifier for safety but it does not run very much.

This in itself made my a/c not run as much last summer and the humidity level came down also. I know I am long winded but to the OP, I have been where you are with an old house and if you do want to fix it up and do it right you will in the long run have all most as much as a new house and still have an OLD house.

I wish you luck in your endeavor.

[deb]

Originally Posted by calliemoonbeam

Dress in several light layers, rather than one heavy sweater, etc. Layers trap air and help insulate. Wear a hat! I know it might sound silly indoors, but we lose a lot of heat through our heads, and it really does help.

.

DH and I have loose "home" clothes that we change into after work. I usually wear a long sleeved thermal shirt, a long sleeved shirt on top and finish it with an over-sized sweatshirt then sweat pants, socks and pull-on slippers. DH likes hooded sweatshirts, but I would rather wear a knit hat. We also have 3 dogs to keep us warm. The upstairs rooms are colder, but we really only go up there at bedtime so it isn't a big deal for us

How cold is it in the various parts of your house?

Making a lot of changes in the middle of winter is going to be hard for you. If it was just me and 4 little kids then I would probably camp with them in the warm room for the rest of winter. If you make it a game it will probably go over pretty well with the kids. Perhaps you can read them the "Little House in the Big Woods" to get them in the mood to be adventurous.

Deb
in wi

[sheepish]

Blown in cellulose insulation is good, spray foam is even better.

Don't forget to seal out air infiltration. When the cold wind blows, go around with a caulking gun and seal every air leak you can find. You will probably need to seal around window and door frames. The baseboards, top and bottom may need it. There are special gaskets for sealing electrical outlets and switch plates. We reduced our heating costs by 1/3 over the previous owners when I did this years ago.

[rickfrosty]

Originally Posted by greenacres

I have an old farm house that needs a fair amount of work. With the temps like they have been at night (9 and 10 degrees) and during the day (20) we are freezing. I did put plastic over the windows that I could reach. That helped some. It is supposed to warm up over the weekend and then go back to colder and freezing and wintery mix again. It is a pier and beam house, nothing on the floors. What can I do to it so we can stay there again and not have to stay at my parents? The warmest room in the house is an add on at the back that is insulated. It gets nice and toasty with just a space heater. On another note, the house and acre it is on is paid for. I am trying to figure out the best route to go in fixing it and what to start with. Thanks so much.

Well, let me say that I was a carpenter & builder most of my life, and while I'm not exactly sure what is entailed in a pier & post foundation, I think it means you have a crawlspace under the house rather than a foundation/basement - that term is not used up here.
If you can insulate whatever 'skirting' or foundation you have it will be a great help. I saw that someone mentioned a thin sheet of insulation, & that might be the way to go, but up here where it's real cold (1 deg. right now, but sunny & beautifull) I used to use sheets of 2 in. styrofoam, & you'll prolly need to make a 2x4 frame (or whatever you can come up with cheapest that can be attached to whatever your perimeter beam member is (& each piece to the others). You can cut this insul. in strips of however wide you need for each section of perimeter wall to go snug against the ground, even maybe scuff up a little trench around bottom of house to seal bottom of insul. ?
Cut w/a circular saw is one way.
You'll have to decide to put this inside or outside of whatever you have goin on under the edge of your house, will look less obnoxious inside, BUT you've got to get it pretty tight.
Someone also mentioned blown-in insul. & that would be well worth your effort & shouldn't be too cost prohibitive. Use a 'hole saw' on a 1/2 in. drill of a size (the hole saw) to match whatever hose the insulation blower you'll be able to get will have and put a hole (or 2 ?) at top of each cavity in your walls. You should get a magnetic stud finder (nail finder actually) to determine how your walls are framed ? Depends what your walls consist of how well this will work. I'd try to get ahold of a carpenter to at least check things out & help you figure out how to proceed. Around here there are guys willing to work cheaper than before (I'm one of them - used to make $30/hr. as a subcontractor 10 yrs. ago when I was doing carpentry full time, now as real estate sales sink I'll work for $20/hr. !)
And definitely blown-in in your attic.
Someone also said to check for termites & that would be good, because all this work is only barely worth doing & ONLY worth doing if you can't afford to put up new & if this house is NOT riddled w/termite damage.

[rickfrosty]

Originally Posted by greenacres

I have an old farm house that needs a fair amount of work. With the temps like they have been at night (9 and 10 degrees) and during the day (20) we are freezing. I did put plastic over the windows that I could reach. That helped some. It is supposed to warm up over the weekend and then go back to colder and freezing and wintery mix again. It is a pier and beam house, nothing on the floors. What can I do to it so we can stay there again and not have to stay at my parents? The warmest room in the house is an add on at the back that is insulated. It gets nice and toasty with just a space heater. On another note, the house and acre it is on is paid for. I am trying to figure out the best route to go in fixing it and what to start with. Thanks so much.

Oh, was going to say - another thing that po-folk do up here is get a big (long) roll of plastic and wrap the outside of the house from the ground (tight) up as high as you can manage & hold this in place w/plenty of some sort of 'strapping' & tiny nails, drywall screws, whatever will secure it & do the least damge to your (clapboards ?) outside your house.