Self Sufficient Barn

[wolffeathers]

This goes along with another thread here talking about converting their current barn into solar. Which gave me a similar question, but I did not wish to possibly derail their thread.

My husband and I look forward building our own homestead/farm with self-sufficiency in mind. I have been looking at all the passive solar and renewable energy sources, most geared towards housing.

Well, I was wondering how efficient the same methods would be for a barn. If you were to build a barn with this in mind would passive solar be of any use in a barn? By barn, it likely be a fairly open barn with stalls and then just some open areas. Would you loose a lot of usable space to the windows?

I ask simply because I know when you build a house with passive solar in mind you make sure to insulate very well, so you don't loose said heat. But you wouldn't insulate the barn near as much as you would your house. You probably would want to use the insulated windows either.

So I'm thinking that passive solar in the barn would be inefficient because the barn would simply loose the heat, because the barn is draft free but not really insulated like a house.

Of course this is my barn of the future, so it's just me dreaming and planning.

[SpaceCadet12364]

I am just guessing, to an extent, passive solar might come in handy when building a barn...depending on what purposes you had in mind. If you were going to have any sort of an office area, or maybe a built-in space for chickens/hatching eggs/"hospital area" for sick or injured animals, etc.....putting said area on the side best suited for passive solar (south facing I think?) with insulated windows and using insulation on the walls separating it from the main part of the barn might be a nice thing to plan for and do.

And, to lessen some of the need for electricity for lighting, maybe some form of skylight/clear paneling in the ceiling/roof?

Just some thoughts of my own, eventually we want to replace the run-down barn we have (it would cost more to repair than to replace .... ......) of our own.

[wolffeathers]

We do have a few of the clear roofing panels on our current barn and really like them. So yes, they will be a part of our dream barn. The only problem I've seen with them is the plastic 'skylights' seem to like to fade and become less clear over time. They may just need a little cleaning, not sure.

[fishhead]

I wonder if there isn't a way to incorporate "igloo" design into the barn. I think it would make a warm dog house.

In case you aren't familiar with it the entrance is lower than the chamber. The eskimos used to get on their hands and knees and crawl into the igloo by first going down and then up into the living space. The change in elevations kept the bitter cold from reaching the inside chamber since cold air sinks and warm air rises.

A building could have the normal doors but the air exchange would go through the lower entrance.

[Farmerwilly2]

We're building our barn this spring. We're going with a 4 bent, that leaves all the space we need for livestock and hay storage. As for efficientcy I plan to use a morris style. This allows for glass down the entire length of the main aisle, letting in a flood of light. No insulation, I don't see any good from an airtight barn, needs to let moisture escape. I will ensure that a stall or two will be draft free but at the same time ventilated the healthiest way to keep stock. It will run east-west to keep a long side facing the sun. The other thing I'm entertaining is a solar collector to heat water. It will make hand washing more pleasant and the stock will drink more in the cold if it has been warmed first.

[julieq]

Originally Posted by Farmerwilly2

The other thing I'm entertaining is a solar collector to heat water. It will make hand washing more pleasant and the stock will drink more in the cold if it has been warmed first.

Boy that'd sure save on heated water buckets and troughs!

Our barn was built around the 1900's, originally a dairy barn. It has a second floor and cement blocks around the bottom. About the only new thing on it is a green metal roof! Definitely vintage.

[mellowguy]

What will be in that barn?

Here where winter temperature goes down to -20F several days per year (and in even colder Canadian locals), drafty barns built 50 years ago are kept above freezing temperature by the animals' body temperature they generate during night-time, and the insulation provided by the hayloft. Water hydrants can sometimes freeze, but that can be addressed with a freeze-proof hydrant.

The only time one would need to consider insulating a barn and incorporating passive solar features would be if the barn is not really a barn (e.g. really a studio, a shop or an office), or if the barn is too big for the number of critters (e.g. 4 hens, 2 goats, 5 rabbits and 2 cows in a drafty 2,000 square foot barn).

I like farmerwilly's idea of generating warm or hot water through solar, but you may be overthinking and overspending on space-heating solar features. That would be for cleaning though. Again, keeping enough critters in the barn at night will keep it above freezing the rest of the day, and keep water from freezing in the troughs.

[julieq]

Originally Posted by mellowguy

What will be in that barn?

Here where winter temperature goes down to -20F several days per year (and in even colder Canadian locals), drafty barns built 50 years ago are kept above freezing temperature by the animals' body temperature they generate during night-time, and the insulation provided by the hayloft. Water hydrants can sometimes freeze, but that can be addressed with a freeze-proof hydrant.

The only time one would need to consider insulating a barn and incorporating passive solar features would be if the barn is not really a barn (e.g. really a studio, a shop or an office), or if the barn is too big for the number of critters (e.g. 4 hens, 2 goats, 5 rabbits and 2 cows in a drafty 2,000 square foot barn).

I like farmerwilly's idea of generating warm or hot water through solar, but you may be overthinking and overspending on space-heating solar features. That would be for cleaning though. Again, keeping enough critters in the barn will keep it above freezing, and keep water from freezing.

Here in Southern Idaho I haven't met freeze-proof hydrant. Maybe they make better ones in your neck of the woods? We have a freeze-proof in our barn, which freezes, so we have anti-freeze tape wrapped around it. The one outside will be frozen most likely until spring.

Agreed on the animals keeping the old barns warm. We have up a few heat lamps, but our two horses generate the most heat when they're in the barn with the goats!

[Alice In TX/MO]

Also, you need ventilation in a barn. The accumulation of urine creates ammonia. This needs to get OUT of the barn or your animals will become ill.

Don't go airtight on a barn.

[mellowguy]

Originally Posted by julieq

Here in Southern Idaho I haven't met freeze-proof hydrant. Maybe they make better ones in your neck of the woods? We have a freeze-proof in our barn, which freezes, so we have anti-freeze tape wrapped around it. The one outside will be frozen most likely until spring.

A frost-proof yard hydrant is one where the shut-off valve is 4 to 6' deep. One centrally located in the barn (or even in barn yard) would not freeze. Once you've got indoor piping, your bets may be off, so it would require carrying pails from the hydrant to the troughs, or having the water distributed by gravity (1"or 1.5" ABS or PVC to the troughs).

Outdoor hydrants can be frost free (10-14" shut-off valve), but it requires that the other side of the wall be heated (for example, from a house rather than a barn). They typically won't work in a barn, because the exposed piping itself will freeze. Our outdoor hydrants (installed on house) won't freeze through the winter if the house is kept warm.

Here's a few examples: http://www.nextag.com/frost-proof-hydrant/compare-html

[julieq]

Yep, mellowguy those look exactly like what we have. But now DH tells me that they apparently don't have the shut off valves installed underground (the hydrants were installed before we moved here). So apparently ours just 'look' frost-proof! Ugh!

[Beeman]

Of course we have no idea where you are.

If you look at old barns in areas that had money you will find a lot of windows, especially dairy barns. If you go price windows you'll see why people stopped putting windows in. If you go price materials you'll find why there are few new barns.

[Callieslamb]

It would help to know just how cold it gets in your area. That might make a difference in our opinions. It would also help to know what kind of animals you plan on using the barn for - if it's animals you are considering. My cows are doing fine outside with a tarp-covered shelter. My sheep do well with calf hutches - when they decide to go in them. My chickens are inside the barn with no extra heat/insulation. I am not sure what you want the passive solar to do. MOST animals in MOST areas do well if you just keep them dry, out of the wind, and on deep bedding. They don't need external heat to stay warm.

If you lived near me - I'd insulate one room of the barn and power it. You never know what you might need in the future. We have a heated tack room that houses the hydrant (as well as DH's computer, and computer driven tools). By keeping that room just above freezing, I have water for inside the barn as well as a faucet that goes to the outside water trough. The faucets are the kind that drain backwards when they are shut off so the faucets never freeze. All water lines I need are inside the tack room - I don't need heating tape, etc. I can still use a hose inside the animal part of the barn. I just drain it afterwards -or I unhook it and move it to the heated room. 1/3 of the barn is DH's workshop. It's insulated very well. I store my milking equipment there. My pulsator and pumps stay in working condition and the hoses are not so stiff that I have to warm them up to get them hooked up.

I wish I had windows. Light is a problem for me. I'd love to find a way to set up some solar power- for those.

[Terri]

Originally Posted by Beeman

Of course we have no idea where you are.

If you look at old barns in areas that had money you will find a lot of windows, especially dairy barns. If you go price windows you'll see why people stopped putting windows in. If you go price materials you'll find why there are few new barns.

I don't know ANYTHING about old barns, but I have a 12' x 10' chicken house/ potting shed.

The 2 extra windows on the south side added $500 to the cost. They are just what the plants need but they were a little expensive.

Insulating it (and we did it ourselves) cost I think about $800 for materials. It was what the plants and birds needed- a Home Depot space heater raises the temperature by 30 degrees or more- but that cost also, and it is just a 12' by 10' structure.

I am older and I wanted something good, and I could afford to spend a little more than the building will ever earn for me. It is an indulgence, plain and simple.

I love it.

In the winter I run a power cord out to the shed for lights and heat. I have moved the chicken feed from the kitchen to the shed. I have shelves with seeds, jiffy pellets, neatly stacked plastic pots, and so forth. It is sunny and cheerfull and I ove it.

[julieq]

I guess they must not have had very much money here in Southern Idaho as our old dairy barn has very few windows. But with all of the lumber they used in it I'm sure it would be very expensive to replace. The only significant metal on it is the new roof, the old door runners and a vintage metal squeeze/loading shoot on one side. And the old metal hay claw is still here, although we've moved it away from the barn so it's not near our goats or horses.

[rambler]

1. What climate are we in? 'Cold' to someone in Tenneesee is different from 'cold' to someone in Minnesota.....

2. What is a 'barn'? For me it is for livestock. Some people call a shed a 'barn', which houses tools and machinery. If ivestock, are we talking big hooved critters, little poultry critters, or?

3. I see a lot of modern thinking here, which doesn't fit old fashioned tried & true 'self-sufficeint' barns that were developed over centuries of trial without electricity.

Small windows, dug into a hillside, hay & straw stored overhead, frost-free energy-free watering systems, manure pack in the barn, etc all work well if you understand the point of it, and design it proper. Ventilation is _very_ important, but needs to work with saving heat as well......

Need more info on what you actually want to really comment on what to do for your needs, your location.

--->Paul

[texican]

Originally Posted by Beeman

Of course we have no idea where you are.

If you look at old barns in areas that had money you will find a lot of windows, especially dairy barns. If you go price windows you'll see why people stopped putting windows in. If you go price materials you'll find why there are few new barns.

Location makes such a huge difference. In Texas, you want long overhanging roofs, for shade from the tropical sun in the summer. In Idaho, I'd imagine you'd want draft proof barns, that could be closed up tight, at times (to keep the blizzard'ed snow from blowin in)... and open to let the fumes out.

If you have sacks full of money, you could go solar... if your on the grid, or have it available, you'll find it a lot cheaper.

I was off grid for 13 years. I was "self-sufficient" 95% of the time. There was absolutely nothing 'simple' about it... I had to monitor the situation on a daily basis...

[geo in mi]

Most farm animals adapt to the cold weather gradually in the Fall by growing thick shaggy coats--at least they did in yesteryear. Nowadays, I'm not so sure if modern breeding has done away with that for commercial milkers, for example, high volume Holsteins, and pigs that are raised in confinement systems. But, generally, animals can withstand cold temps, but not direct drafts, so at most, you need lots of fluffy straw bedding. So, solar or passive heat systems wouldn't be necessary. The many windows for dairy barns were the first of many USDA Grade A requirements in the forties and fifties--so many square feet of window space for sunlight to promote sanitation--cleansing of germs by sunlight (in theory, at least)...... Chicken houses usually had wide windows, at the top roof tier, to open up for ammonia escape, and to get as much light as possible to promote egg laying in the wintertime--especially before electric lighting.

geo

[wolffeathers]

I simply started the thread to kick around ideas for the day we really start planning a barn(if the property doesn't have one already). It will be a couple of years before we really start looking for a place. We hope to find a farm somewhere in southwest VA. We visit there often and really love it there. I enjoy kicking around the ideas because if we do it, I would really like to do it right the first time. I have known folks who have sold their animals because they felt they no longer wanted or could climb up into their loft to throw hay or wanted to care for their poultry any more because the pen they built was a series of pens, where you had to start at the end and then crawl(contourt) through 3'X3' "doors" to get from one pen to the next. A friend of mine spent the money to do it how she wants to do it and still has a couple of horses and her tons of poultry because she setup her place to allow her to do her chores from her pickup truck or golfcart(her way of getting around her farm). It was inspiring to me and my husband as well.

As far as the animals that will be in the barn, I'm not sure really. (As hysterical as that sounds. LOL!) We have horses, goats, cows, and various poultry. Our current barn is set up with a stalls, one we use for feed, one for rabbits, one for everything else(calf/goats/whatever is runamuck that day) and then one stall for a milk room. So the future barn will have a milk room(with heated water!) and a wash bay, they will probably be right next to eachother, since they'll be setup similar. The rest of the barn is just this ever-changing idea that we 'add' rules to as we go. (rules such as: the aisles will allow the truck or tractor to go through for feeding or whatever. The barn will have running water and heated water).

I have played with the idea of just building a large metal workshop of a barn as my mother once had and then just modifying the open area as I need it. A couple of portable stalls over there, the milk room in this corner, etc.

I don't need the barn heated as you would a house. I just know going out to milk a cow and it's freezing isn't as enjoyable if the barn is just a little bit warmer than the outside cold. So when I mentioned solar heating, I guess I was just wondering if it would be practical in a barn setting. It was a spur of the moment question. After thinking about it and reading all the input, I'm guessing it would be unpractical, if not unnecessary.

I know, I am long winded. I really enjoy this group and the input from everyone here.

[wolffeathers]

I also realize the name of the thread, really wasn't accurate to what I was aiming for, but I have tried to edit titles in the past and it didn't work. LOL

My husband and I don't really care of be off-grid. We hope to have solar panels, not so we can be completely off grid, but because we want them(and you never know when the zombies will attack )