...re-wiring an old trailer

[motdaugrnds]

We live in a 1972 Andover trailer (3 bdrm & 1-1/2 bath). It has an oil furnace. Our water is well water routed to a horizontal water-pressure tank we placed under the trailer. David put up the electric "box" on a utility pole the electric company put in. He ran a 200 (? amp ?) wire up from that box to the top of that pole. He ran a 100 (? amp ?) underground through a conduit from that box to the trailer and connected it to both the pressure tank and up into the house to a 100 (? amp ?) meterbox. This was over 15 yrs ago and all has worked well until recently.

(David ran 2 other wires underground from the "outdoor" meter box/utility pole through conduits. One connects to the air conditioner; and the other connects to the computer.)

[Just a note: About 3 yrs ago a professional electrician added a meter box inside our barn and ran wiring from that same utility pole's meter box underground about 40' to it. From there he ran wiring into the barn (lights) and underground about 60' to our tool shed, continuing it on underground about 150' out to a flood light near our buck house. (The switch to the tool shed often clicks itself off even when nothing is being used. We have replaced that switch and it still does it. We can re-set it and sometimes it stays on for days; then we find it has flipped itself off again .. all without apparent cause.) This is "not" our major concern at this time.]

Our main concern is the trailer. Here it is winter time and the breaker to the hot water heater has flipped itself off 3 times in one day. Once when being re-set, the "main" breaker "outdoors" at the utility pole shut the entire house down. The oil furnace, electric stove, water heater, washing machine, dryer, refrigerator, microwave, toaster, television and all lighting runs off this "indoor" meter box.

My question: Has anyone experience in re-wiring an old trailer house? If so, can you give us an idea as to how it was done? Also, is this something that a non-professional can do safely? (David ran all the wire and put breakers into the breaker box; also set up "outlets" for us both indoors and outdoors .. from the large breaker box outside on the utility pole. However, he has never ran wires through walls to connect to appliances, etc.) Any help/information/cautions would be appreciated.

[ErinP]

If he has already run the main service lines to your house, he can probably do the interior wiring, too.
(Note: Many people here will swear that you need a pro. You don't. Wiring is pretty straightforward so long as you're very careful to disconnect things before working. Again, I'm guessing your husband already knows this, though.)

Do you maybe have the wiring schematic for the house? We have it (and all the other paperwork) for ours.

Are you sure you need to redo ALL of the wiring? It's less than 40 years old... Sounds more like you need to chase down a spot where a mouse has been nibbling...

[The Paw]

I am not sure if I understand your description correctly, but it sounds like that you split 200 amps by bringing 100 amps into the breaker box in the house, and the remaining 100 amps is split between the air conditioner, barn etc.

I am no electrician, but if that is the case, all the things you have inside the trailer could easily trip the switches on a 100 amp box. Modern appliances, or adding microwave toasters and dryers can exceed the power demand that the 1972 original wiring anticipated.

I would have a pro evaluate if your subpanels are set up right. Maybe you don't need all that amperage for the barn and air conditioner, and you could bring more of it in to the trailer subpanel. If that is done, you could then change some circuits inside the trailer yourself fairly easily. For instance, put the fridge on a dedicated circuit, have a 20 amp dedicated circuit for countertop kitchen appliances etc.

[Travis in Louisiana]

Basicly, the breaker to the hot water heater is tripping, and at one time, even the main breaker to the trailer tripped also, which shut down everything. Apparently, something in the hotwater heater has gone to ground to cause the breaker to trip or the wiring in the hot water heater or going to the hot water heater is shorting out, pulling too many amps and tripping the breaker. If everything runs fine, with the hot water heater breaker off, then the hot water heater is the problem. A heater element may have shorted out or a wire to one of the elements or to the thermostate has come off or loosened up and is slightly touching metal, thus tripping the breaker. I would turn off the breaker to the hot water heater, take the panels off where the elements are and just check the wires for looseness or if any has come loose. The problem with the barn switch maybe just too long of a run, too small a wire for the job. Lets just work on the hot water heater tripping right now.

[motdaugrnds]

We discovered this only occurs when we use most of the hot water (only a 30 gal heater) at one time. We had to take hot water out to the goats/chickens; then I made the mistake of taking a shower (started with extra warm water and ended with "cool" water). Immediately after this I started wondering why we had no hot water .. duh! David saw the breaker had "not" tripped; so he turned it off and back on again. In a matter of seconds we heard a large pop and all electrical in house went off. (The breaker outside had tripped.)

Since the incident described in initial post, it has not occurred again. Neither have we had to have so much hot water so quickly.

Travis, when you say the "...hot water heater has 'gone to ground' to cause the breaker to trip", what do you mean? We do suspect the water heater is the problem. When you say "...take the panels off where the elements are..." are you talking about some panels on the heater, itself?

As to the barn switch, which can be saved for another thread, it was a "professional" who chose the wire, ran it and hooked it all up. He said it was wire suited for underground. That is all I know about it but will see if I can find out exactly what wire was used.

[ErinP]

hot water heater has 'gone to ground' to cause the breaker to trip", what do you mean? We do suspect the water heater is the problem. When you say "...take the panels off where the elements are..." are you talking about some panels on the heater, itself?

He means something in the water heater, or the wiring in the vicinity is grounding out, electrically. Bad connection, insulation off the wire, etc.
Yeah, he means the water heater's panel. Have you guys opened it up to see if lime or something is building up on the heater's connections?

[KY Doug]

Not an electician here but your water heater seems to be the problem to me. There are usually two heating elements in the water heater. They can and do go bad. One element going bad could be the reason you say your water does not heat up as quickly now. The connections to the heating element may be corroded also. Is this water heater the one that came with your home?

Water heaters accumulate rust and debris at the bottom of the water heater over time. This can accumulate as high as the lower heating element. Some folks flush their water heater from time to time by opening the spigot at the bottom of the water tank.

Doug

[Bearfootfarm]

Travis, when you say the "...hot water heater has 'gone to ground' to cause the breaker to trip", what do you mean? We do suspect the water heater is the problem. When you say "...take the panels off where the elements are..." are you talking about some panels on the heater, itself?

That means the heating elements may be shorting out.

They are accessable through panels on the side of the heater

Turn off the power and drain it first if you can

[oneokie]

As others have said, you probably have a bad heating element in your water heater.

As to the breaker to the tool shed tripping, you have a short in that circuit somewhere. It could be anywhere in that line from the barn to the tool shed or past the tool shed to the flood light.

[jwal10]

Is the wiring in the house aluminium? Some older mobiles were. The pop could have been the wire getting good contact and is why it is working now. Do check out the water heater. TURN OFF POWER. Put a hose on the drain valve and flush it. Turn off water to it, drain and remove both elements. Make sure all is good, refill, run water through a faucet and then turn power back on. Barn, shed. Is there something in there that starts on it's own? Draw may only be too much when several start at the same time....James

[ErinP]

Is the wiring in the house aluminium? Some older mobiles were.

That's a good point, too.

Aluminum works fine (though it needs to be sized a bit larger than copper) but it does corrode at the connection points. You need magic goo (i can't remember what the stuff is called!) that you smear on the connection points to prevent corrosion.

Though like everyone else, I still think you need to explore the heater itself first.

[plowjockey]

If the wiring has been "fine" until recently, why rewire anything, especially if it has only been 15 years?

You have a problem somewhere and if that problem is in an appliance, heater or furnace, it will still be there with new wire.

If other breakers are tripping,trace out what all is connected and how much juice, they are using.

We just blew a fuse (never happens) last night. Our farmhouse is 130 years old and the wiring is "interesting", to say the least. Come to find out there was 3 heaters, computers and xmas lights all on the same circuit. Oopps.

Good luck.

[Travis in Louisiana]

I am sorry I have not gotten back to you sooner. I am between shifts and tons of overtime. When I said the Hot Water Heater (HWH) has gone to ground, I mean some wiring in it is either touching some metal, causing the breaker to trip. Apparently, the HWH is not going to ground, since you are able to use it. The panels on the HWH cover up the wiring to the heating elements and provide access to the ends of the elements. NEVER take the panels off unless you turn the power off to the HWH first or you could get shocked. There are also a thermostate at each element. I suspect from the way you are describing what is happening, that one of the elements has either a loose wire on it, or bad connection, thus causing the heater to pull too many amps, tripping the breaker. Only one element heats at a time and I think the top element heats first, then the thermostate switches to the bottom element. With out a volt/ohm meter, it will be hard to say what is going on. I would still turn the power off and remove the panels and check for loose wiring, burnt wiring, corosion (sp) or anything out of the ordinary. Don't take the elements out unless you first drain the tank and I would not take them out till I knew for sure the element was bad, but you will need a volt/ohm meter to test it. I will reply more after I get to work tonight. Later Traavis

[texican]

I'd not use the hot water heater, till you check and see if a new heating element solves your problem. Turning it back on after the breakers throw is a good way of burning down the house.

I haven't done this kind of work in several years... my humble opinion is these older homes weren't designed to last 20 years, much less 40. The wiring wasn't great to begin with, and all the extras that take more energy just stresses the wires too much. I've found voltage flowing through the exterior walls to the ground... I've found hot spots in the wall... owner thought it didn't 'sound right'... no! When you pull off the paneling and the wires are glowing... Usually when I ask is your insurance paid up, they know it's serious.

If I had to rewire an older trailer house for my own use, I'd cut holes in the floor for ground plugs (behind couches and where they'd be less obnoxious), wire everything straight down, in conduits, and go to the main breaker...

Being "professional" doesn't mean your guy did it right. For a run that long, the wire would need to be very large (read: expensive). No large wire, your going to get less power than most appliances need.

Btw... Is your insurance paid up? Irreplaceable valuables in a secure place? {do you detect my concern? }

[Shygal]

Aluminum wiring in mobile homes was a cause of a lot of trailer fires. Also, if someone that wasnt professional did the wiring, Im not sure if insurance would pay out on that?

[agmantoo]

Some older mobile homes are equipped with a single water heating element and some of the water heaters are only 120 volts. Additionally some of the old water heaters have a coil type element that is not submersed in water. You need to determine the type/number of elements and what voltage is used with your water heater and report those findings here. Additionally, circuit breakers also fail. You may want to start off with a new 30 amp breaker as that is an easy replacement. An electrician could also possibly redistribute the power and better balance the load on the 100 amp home circuits.

[motdaugrnds]

Thank you all for helping me understand this. Yes, we are thinking it is the elements inside the water heater, itself. Thus, the first day David can get outside (where access to the heater is), he will take off the panel and take a look.

James, by "flushing", we are to "...put a hose on the drain valve and flush it." ?? I am guessing you mean to drain the heater first, then just run water into it from the hose?

[As to the barn/shed, no there is nothing that comes on or starts on its own. Nothing is on. We simply flip a light switch and no lights. Check the box and the breaker was "off". (The wiring coming from utility pole to barn appears good in that not once has anything in the barn .. both freezers and both lights .. not come on. It is just from the barn to the tool shed. At the tool shed is the switch to the flood lights in the back pasture; so when nothing works in the tool shed, the flood lights don't work either.)]

Thanks Travis for the explanation. I am more of a visual learner; so wording does not always clarify much for me. I have to turn the words into visualizations. I do appreciate everyone's patience with me.

ROFL, oh yes, Texican, I do detect your concern. Yes this trailer is quite old (38 yrs). Yes our insurance is paid up. As for as "valuables" ... ROFL ... Ours are 4-legged in the barn.

The wiring in this trailer is the "original" done by Commodore employees (1972) and only what was originally placed in the trailer is "all" the electrical units still using that internal meter box. (The wiring for the air conditioner & computer does not run thru the house.)

About a year after we purchased this trailer, we replaced the hot water heater; so the heater is 10-12 yrs old now. I cannot find records on it and cannot even see it until the weather lets us take the paneling off the trailer where it is.

[jwal10]

James, by "flushing", we are to "...put a hose on the drain valve and flush it." ?? I am guessing you mean to drain the heater first, then just run water into it from the hose?

Put a hose on the drain valve on the bottom of the tank and let water run while under pressure to FLUSH the tank before you turn off the water. TURN off the power first. A lot of sediment builds up in a tank, this flushes it out so when you take out the heating element you can see how much build up is still in the tank. If the build up is bad enough it can short out an element....James

[Cheribelle]

OK, I haven't read all the posts yet, because this comes too close to home. I needed to post ASAP. My Uncle had 2 different mobi; homes BURN due to loose wires at the hot water heater! I understand that they were wired with aluminum wires? And these will loosen up over time? Go around to ALL wire connections and tighten them ASAP. Please.

[motdaugrnds]

Thank you James. That is "nearly" clear to me. When we place the hose on the drain valve at the bottom of the tank and let the water run while under pressure, I am guessing you mean simply let the water run out of the hose into the water heater. Is that the "while under pressure" you are referring to? Next question, since we will be attaching the water "hose" to the water heater's drain valve, how is the water suppose to come out in order to get the heater flushed? Do you mean run water into the heater from the water hose, then unattach the water hose and drain heater a second time (this second drain would be the "flushing")?

Cheribelle, I am going to call Commodore as soon as they open tomorrow and find out if they used aluminum wiring in their Andoras back in 1972.

Since this occurred, we have juggled our hot water usage to make sure we do not drain the tank. So far the breaker has not tripped again; but we are going to proceed with the suggestions made in here anyway. Thanks everyone.