New/Old SUV help

[speedfunk]

So our subby impreza outback wagon which we use pretty heavily is getting old. Expensive parts etc. Towing a trailer around while building the house the struts now shot. The engine also is leaking oil (have not found out where yet as its winter and I dont have a lift) Leaks about a quart every 1000 miles. We are also very close to being debt free with money leftover for a new car/suv. We are 3 weeks from closing We also have twins on the way in addition to our lil boy tuck.

So we need a family vehicle that will be are only car. I drive a bit with the band I am in and we run errands so mpg is pretty important (20-30 would be good). I believe that the criteria i have would be better met looking at older cars more so then new.


Anyways, below are my things I need the car to accomplish. Maybe some of you with more hands on knowledge of older cars might be able to help. I am pretty good with repairs and have even went as far as installing a new engine in a 98 neon.

I want a suv with good quality thicker metal (can take the salts they use in upstate NY with out rusting out) I have seen to many rusted out cars here.

good mpg ( 20-30 avg)

a simple car . Heat and an interior light is all I need (maybe 12volt cig lighter). Dont want anything extra really. Just transportation.

Must fit 3 kids, 2 adults and a bit of storage for stuff.

Simple to repair, less parts better. Parts are common and affordable Maybe a diesel would be more apporiate for this part?

common tire sizes (no low profile)

DIY friendly

AWD or 4WD

Tow 1700-2300 pounds

THe new vehicles i was looking at were the Ford Escape, Toyota rav4 , Honda CRV. I think though that older vehicles would be a better bet. I can get them cheaper and even if they break we would have money set aside from the savings of a new car to fix. Its nice to reuse also.


Any thoughts hat vehicles should I look into?






1. simple design that will allow easy maintenance. I am thinking here on the level of my VW bug that I had.

[HermitJohn]

The vehicles you mention are not going to tow 2300# safely. Heavier vehicles are going to be kinda limited to around 20mpg at the best. Nothing modern is simple to work on. There havent been shade tree mechanic friendly cars for long time, so unless you are going to drag one home from desert southwest or something unlikely you are going to find solid one in the rust belt.

The only older vehicle that comes anywhere close to your specs would be an early Ford Bronco 1966 to 1977 with 200 cubic inch straight six and a 3 spd manual transmission. I owned a '71 many years back and it got like 22mpg at 55 to 60mph though sure that depends on how your particular speciman is geared. Simple as it gets for 4wd vehicle and it had good road manners, also not common in older 4wds. Kinda short wheelbase to be good for towing, but it could do it occasionally if you arent having to go fast. These were not interstate cruisers by any means. Thing is these are now collectable and bring too much money if they are in any kind of repairable condition. Plus lot of those that originally had straight six got hotrodded with a v8. So the six cylinder versions are rare as hens teeth. Not sure why as the straight six had plenty power for this size vehicle and got lot better mileage.

No idea on your emission inspection laws, but I put a straight six in my little Ranger and used a 3spd and Dana 20 transfer case from an early Bronco. So you can mix and match if you are desperate enough. Oddly the drivetrains from old Broncos arent nearly as expensive as old Broncos bodies and chassis. People that buy them arent too interested in 3spd transmissions, etc... They just want it to look like an old Bronco I guess.

If you need an honest 25mpg, you need to stick with Subaru or Suzuki. Though neither is made to tow like you want to tow.

[Ramblin Wreck]

I have a Subaru Forrester rated to tow 2400 lbs, but I would not want to pull/stop that much with it. I'm getting very good MPG, but I attribute that to the manual transmission. As for rust, we don't salt roads here, so I cannot provide input on that. Good luck.

[Common Tator]

Sounds like you really need two vehicles. Something small and economical for the mileage, and a pickup or SUV for the towing.

[PhilJohnson]

The closest vehicle I can think of would be a Jeep Cherokee. Mileage is right around 20-25 depending on if it has a four cylinder versus six or auto versus manual. The six cylinder engine is quite powerful yet easy to work on and long lived. Parts are much cheaper than any import SUV. Jeeps don't use low pro tires. Also I've driven a few and owned one myself and I thought they handled very well, definitely don't have that tippy feeling like other SUVs. Also I believe a 2001 Cherokee with a 4.0 six was rated for 5000 pound tow rating.

[ecbreed]

Ford Excursion diesel. I love mine. It can tow anything I need it too, gets 20 mpg locally and 25ish on the highway. Seats 7 comfortably, and if I fold down the seats I can fit a sheet of plywood in it. I have had it since 2004 and it has only gone in the shop twice. Both times it cost me less than $600.

[vallyfarm]

Another vote for Jeep Cherokee, but an oldre (89-93 I belive) with the solid front axle. They hold up a lot better than the independant axle. With a straight six and auto tranny can (wuz) getting around 25 mpg when trying to. Parts are cheap, and a ton were made. Mike

[fordy]

Originally Posted by speedfunk

So our subby impreza outback wagon which we use pretty heavily is getting old. Expensive parts etc. Towing a trailer around while building the house the struts now shot. The engine also is leaking oil (have not found out where yet as its winter and I dont have a lift) Leaks about a quart every 1000 miles. We are also very close to being debt free with money leftover for a new car/suv. We are 3 weeks from closing We also have twins on the way in addition to our lil boy tuck.

So we need a family vehicle that will be are only car. I drive a bit with the band I am in and we run errands so mpg is pretty important (20-30 would be good). I believe that the criteria i have would be better met looking at older cars more so then new.


Anyways, below are my things I need the car to accomplish. Maybe some of you with more hands on knowledge of older cars might be able to help. I am pretty good with repairs and have even went as far as installing a new engine in a 98 neon.

I want a suv with good quality thicker metal (can take the salts they use in upstate NY with out rusting out) I have seen to many rusted out cars here.

good mpg ( 20-30 avg)

a simple car . Heat and an interior light is all I need (maybe 12volt cig lighter). Dont want anything extra really. Just transportation.

Must fit 3 kids, 2 adults and a bit of storage for stuff.

Simple to repair, less parts better. Parts are common and affordable Maybe a diesel would be more apporiate for this part?

common tire sizes (no low profile)

DIY friendly

AWD or 4WD

Tow 1700-2300 pounds

THe new vehicles i was looking at were the Ford Escape, Toyota rav4 , Honda CRV. I think though that older vehicles would be a better bet. I can get them cheaper and even if they break we would have money set aside from the savings of a new car to fix. Its nice to reuse also.


Any thoughts hat vehicles should I look into?






1. simple design that will allow easy maintenance. I am thinking here on the level of my VW bug that I had.

................Does your trailer , have brakes ? If not , why not ! Not being smart , but , If your pulling significant loads and depending upon the Sub too stop both vehicles you have significantly overloaded and shortened the service life of an , otherwise , very dependable vehicle . I'd put brakes on the trailer , if appropriate , and buy another Subaru or as mentioned previously , a Jeep . , fordy

[HermitJohn]

Originally Posted by vallyfarm

Another vote for Jeep Cherokee, but an oldre (89-93 I belive) with the solid front axle. They hold up a lot better than the independant axle. With a straight six and auto tranny can (wuz) getting around 25 mpg when trying to. Parts are cheap, and a ton were made. Mike

Rebuilt auto trannies for these are cheap? I doubt it and any high mile vehicle unless its recently had good rebuilt auto tranny put in it, is not going to be trust worthy. Usually older/high mile auto tranny vehicles get junked BECAUSE its not economical to replace/rebuild the auto tranny. These arent your fathers TH350 auto tranny you could walk out of parts store for $300 rebuilt one.

I dont know about manual tranny Cherokees of this era, but have heard horror stories of various light duty manual trannies in Wranglers which I think offered basically same drivetrain. They used several different 5spd manual trannies over the years and not all (maybe none) are directly interchangable, but some were better, some worse far as longevity. And they are not cheap to replace. Smart people upgrade to heavy duty manual tranny out of a different heavier duty vehicle if they are going to keep their Wrangler long term after the light duty one fails. But this is custom work and not cheap.

And I admit the OP was all over the place describing what he wanted. He mentions all these modern vehicles, then wants a simple older vehicle like his ancient VW bug. So???? I repeat my contention that NO modern vehicle is simple and cheap to repair. You might get lucky and not need repairs for long time, you might not. You can repair one at home, but better have lot more skill and tools than traditional shade tree type mechanic. Many modern vehicles have to be disassembled in exact reverse order of how they were assembled at the factory just to R&R one small piece. This can mean something that was simple and quick to repair in bygone days to fix can be a major undertaking.

You want nice horror story of modern vehicles. A friend and his wife live in TX and come up to Ozarks to vacation house he and his siblings own. They were up few weeks ago in their 2006 Chevy Duramax Diesel Express Van (3/4 ton 2wd), now out of warranty. It gets great mileage (around 21mpg), no argument there. But it broke down just as they reached their place here. It wouldnt even idle. We changed out the $150 special order fuel FILTER to no real effect. This was on a weekend and he had to get back to his job. So he looked in yellow pages, found guy who claimed to be an expert on Duramax diesels that could get right to work on it. Well mechanic was sure it was the lift pump in the tank that primes the injector pump. He drops the tank only to find that unlike the Duramax pickups hes worked on, the vans have the lift pump external and above the water separater. So he has to send pump he ordered back and order proper one. Does that and the van will now run, but not go over 50mph. Lovely. Mechanic now thinks its a stuck injector but doesnt have more time to work on it. Friend and his wife decide to chance it and add some injector cleaner the mechanic recommends. By time they get to Dallas, its running better and they can get up to 60. All this fun has them out around $1000 at this point and van isnt right yet. This time they take it to their local dealer down in Austin. He replaces the fuel filter once again that is less than a week old (fuel is very clean so unlikely its filter that soon) and determines its some turbo sensor. All this for a paultry $1300 more. I havent heard from friend since if this actually solved problem or not. But anyway no new engine, no new transmission, but still $2300 out of pocket so far. Now tell me how economical new vehicles are to fix? You better get great mileage and drive huge number of miles to make this kind of expensive modern beast worth the money. Or be VERY LUCKY!!!!!

[Cheribelle]

I love my Jeep Cherokee. $2100, and maybe $600 so far in repairs, driving it 5 years now. Pull a boat, horse trailer, utility trailer.....
96 4X 6 cyl high output
Love it!

[plowjockey]

I have a 98 Nissan Pathfinder, V6, 4WD manual trans. These were one of the last Pathy models built in Japan (yes, there is a difference). The most bullet-proof vehicle, I have ever, or will ever own. 145k mi and the ONLY failure part replaced have been the headlamps and the battery (once).

Fits your criteria, except for mileage (avg 16 mpg).

Mine has nearly no rust, but I have seen other models with a bit more, never anything really cancerous.

I wish I had 5 more of these parked out back of the barn.

[kan-green]

Jeep Cherokee. I have owned two, still driving one and the other I traded off but it is still running. It is 1998 which I bought three years ago for 3500 it had 75000 miles. now it has over 150,000 and only had minor repairs i did myself. They have solid engines, 4wd, plenty of space for kids and cargo. Properly mai-tained it should last several more years. My wife has newer expedition. Has more people space but less cargo and sucks down the gas.

[homstedinmyhead]

I would go for a cherokee as well. I dont think the gas mileage on the 6 cylinder is great but those trucks are basically bullet proof and relatively cheap and easy to fix.

[PhilJohnson]

Originally Posted by vallyfarm

Another vote for Jeep Cherokee, but an oldre (89-93 I belive) with the solid front axle. They hold up a lot better than the independant axle. With a straight six and auto tranny can (wuz) getting around 25 mpg when trying to. Parts are cheap, and a ton were made. Mike

All Jeeps had solid front axles until the Liberty came out. The Cherokee had the same body shell from 1984 till 2001 which makes a lot of the parts super cheap and readily available.

Originally Posted by HermitJohn

Rebuilt auto trannies for these are cheap? I doubt it and any high mile vehicle unless its recently had good rebuilt auto tranny put in it, is not going to be trust worthy. Usually older/high mile auto tranny vehicles get junked BECAUSE its not economical to replace/rebuild the auto tranny. These arent your fathers TH350 auto tranny you could walk out of parts store for $300 rebuilt one.

True but you could walk out of a junk yard with a low mileage one for 300 bucks. Typically I'd say 800-1200 bucks will rebuild most transmissions today.

Originally Posted by HermitJohn

And I admit the OP was all over the place describing what he wanted. He mentions all these modern vehicles, then wants a simple older vehicle like his ancient VW bug. So???? I repeat my contention that NO modern vehicle is simple and cheap to repair. You might get lucky and not need repairs for long time, you might not. You can repair one at home, but better have lot more skill and tools than traditional shade tree type mechanic. Many modern vehicles have to be disassembled in exact reverse order of how they were assembled at the factory just to R&R one small piece. This can mean something that was simple and quick to repair in bygone days to fix can be a major undertaking.

I still contend that a Jeep Cherokee is a probably about the simplest modern vehicle there is to repair besides a Geo with a three cylinder. Granted it isn't ridiculously simple like my 65 F100 but as far as modern vehicles go it isn't bad.

Originally Posted by HermitJohn

You want nice horror story of modern vehicles. A friend and his wife live in TX and come up to Ozarks to vacation house he and his siblings own. They were up few weeks ago in their 2006 Chevy Duramax Diesel Express Van (3/4 ton 2wd), now out of warranty. It gets great mileage (around 21mpg), no argument there. But it broke down just as they reached their place here. It wouldnt even idle. We changed out the $150 special order fuel FILTER to no real effect. This was on a weekend and he had to get back to his job. So he looked in yellow pages, found guy who claimed to be an expert on Duramax diesels that could get right to work on it. Well mechanic was sure it was the lift pump in the tank that primes the injector pump. He drops the tank only to find that unlike the Duramax pickups hes worked on, the vans have the lift pump external and above the water separater. So he has to send pump he ordered back and order proper one. Does that and the van will now run, but not go over 50mph. Lovely. Mechanic now thinks its a stuck injector but doesnt have more time to work on it. Friend and his wife decide to chance it and add some injector cleaner the mechanic recommends. By time they get to Dallas, its running better and they can get up to 60. All this fun has them out around $1000 at this point and van isnt right yet. This time they take it to their local dealer down in Austin. He replaces the fuel filter once again that is less than a week old (fuel is very clean so unlikely its filter that soon) and determines its some turbo sensor. All this for a paultry $1300 more. I havent heard from friend since if this actually solved problem or not. But anyway no new engine, no new transmission, but still $2300 out of pocket so far. Now tell me how economical new vehicles are to fix? You better get great mileage and drive huge number of miles to make this kind of expensive modern beast worth the money. Or be VERY LUCKY!!!!!

And that is why I drive old stuff myself. I can pull the motor and transmission out of my F100 in the same amount of time that it takes to pull a starter out of most newer vehicles. I had a transmission go out on one of my other trucks, I had another one shipped to my door for 120 bucks. My old 77 F100 had maybe 600 dollars worth of repairs done to it since 2002. It was a 300 dollar truck. It took a semi to take it out of service. I like old vehicles because I can keep rebuilding them and replacing parts on them over and over again for next to nothing.

[fordy]

...................In july my '03 dually will be paid for , then I can call it.....Old Iron......, lol , ! , fordy:banana02:

[backtotheland]

You have a PM

[Gary in ohio]

Pretty much EVERY 4x4 truck out there is going to be in the 18-22mpg. Regardless if its a little 4cyc or a big v8. The only way your going to get better MPG is a small turbo diesel and almost no manufacture sells them in the US....

WHY jeep can bring the wrangler to the US I dont know. In the US 18mpg on gas, In europe they are getting 30+ MPG on diesel.

[HermitJohn]

Originally Posted by PhilJohnson

All Jeeps had solid front axles until the Liberty came out. The Cherokee had the same body shell from 1984 till 2001 which makes a lot of the parts super cheap and readily available.

The body and frame were unchanged for most part, the drivetrain changed considerably. The six was "upgraded" couple times, there were different transmissions used and different transfer cases.

I am no expert on these, but I can say newer cars in general, you better be darn sure exactly what you are buying when you buy used parts. Just cause something looks same doesnt mean it is. Bolt holes change placement in castings, etc. This can really ruin your day when the bolt hole spacing is half inch different on your replacement part.... Fuel systems and emission controls change on slightest provocation. People are running into this now where some emissions part made for 6 months 20 years ago has disappeared from the market. And for many people there is emissions inspection. Though for more rural people maybe not.

Originally Posted by PhilJohnson

True but you could walk out of a junk yard with a low mileage one for 300 bucks. Typically I'd say 800-1200 bucks will rebuild most transmissions today.

By low mile I assume you mean 150k. I would be very dubious of a junkyard saying they had an automatic tranny from '89 vehicle with 50k miles. And at 150k, even if mileage is accurate, you have no history of how it was used or abused. Its a gamble especially on something like an automatic transmission. And if you've ever owned a 4wd, you probably know what a pain it is to replace a transmission. Even on a non-computer vehicle. So you buy your bargain junkyard tranny, put it in and it breaks in the 30 day warranty. You are stuck doing the whole horrible job over again. And you dont get a second 30 days, just the remainder of the first warranty in case second one is garbage too.

Used automatics unless you personally know the history or personally trust the seller, are BIG GAMBLE.

Originally Posted by PhilJohnson

I still contend that a Jeep Cherokee is a probably about the simplest modern vehicle there is to repair besides a Geo with a three cylinder. Granted it isn't ridiculously simple like my 65 F100 but as far as modern vehicles go it isn't bad.

Its not transverse mounted front drive engine, but other than that, cant see its any easier to work on than any other modern rear drive vehicle with push rod engine. Its still computerized multiport fuel injection and stuff isnt all that easy to get to or find.

Originally Posted by PhilJohnson

And that is why I drive old stuff myself. I can pull the motor and transmission out of my F100 in the same amount of time that it takes to pull a starter out of most newer vehicles. I had a transmission go out on one of my other trucks, I had another one shipped to my door for 120 bucks. My old 77 F100 had maybe 600 dollars worth of repairs done to it since 2002. It was a 300 dollar truck. It took a semi to take it out of service. I like old vehicles because I can keep rebuilding them and replacing parts on them over and over again for next to nothing.

Its why I keep piecing together non-computer antiques. I drive relatively low miles per year and mostly local. Spending some crazy amount money on newer vehicle that doesnt like setting around unused for lengthy periods of time is crazy. Some of these pack rats around here can chew up wiring pretty good. Not big deal on old non-computer vehicle, but it can be a nightmare on some modern vehicle with miles of wiring.

[fordy]

.....................Hj , I started putting moth balls under the Dually in hopes it might dissuade the mice from crawling up under my hood ! I drive the ranger too work , but drive the dually several times a week into town and back which is a 12 mile round trip . , fordy

[speedfunk]

Thanks all for GREAT responses. I am going to show them to my wife tonight.

The funny things is we used to own a cherokee. It was a while ago though and the main beef we had with the vehicle is did not break very well going down hills in the snow. If i remember I just kind of locked up and skided. When we got the chance the wife sold it and got a wrangler which stopped much better. I will look into this option again though.

The mpg on the 4cyl 99 cherokee is 16city 18highway
The mpg on the 6cyl is 17city 20highway
both manual. fueleconomy.gov

to bad it was not a bit higher we remember the gas not being that great (compared to something like the suby for instance)

I realize the things I want out of a vehicle are a lot (and diverse) . We downsized to one car a year/two ago and I would really hate to double my headaches and maintenance schedules, insurance, not to mention NYS really hits you with registration fees/inspections etc.

I think we can compromise on the towing more then the mpg. Brakes for the trailer are good ideas. Or just taking more trips which is ok.

I did look into a 3cyl geo metro and that car is simple as hell and super fuel efficient... 45mpg with nothing but a simple motor. very appealing.

I am confused as to why there is no one making a simple to maintain car. Roll up windows / etc. I realize it would be a niche vehicle but as you all have shown I think there is a demand for it. Even trucks are carish now with amenities ?

BTW the suby is a great car for the most part but its not as simple as I would like. Also we towed a max of 1300 with that (including trailer). We tried 1500 but the brakes were not liking it at all. A forester might up that a bit for a compromise in mpg. Also dont like how most suby tires are some version of low pro. Parts are expensive and engine bay is fairly tight. AWD is amazing on it for sure. Trans seems solid I just replace manual trans fluid more often..no prob there.

check engine light came back on the suby. awesome.