Homestead timber management for yearly income

[WifenMommy1]

My husband and I are considering purchasing a large tract of timberland for the purposes of managing the timber in such a way so that we can gain a yearly income off of it. We have experience with the traditional cycle of clearcut, replant, thin pines being done by a timber company etc. What we are not experienced with is the ins and outs of personally managing timberland for a yearly harvest. This would be beneficial from a long term timberland improvement standpoint as well as lowering the tax burden from a larger harvest done sporadically. Labor is not an issue as we farm and have the equipment and time needed to haul logs and for thinning of young timber. Looking in the KY VA NC area for land that would be good for this purpose so advice from people in that area would be nice.

Are there any people on this site that have a large tract of timberland that they manage for a yearly income (as opposed to the usual thinning/harvest on a 10 or more year schedule)? If so, we have some questions...

1. Is it better to invest in pine land which has a faster growth rate hence more frequent harvesting with a lower profit for labor, or hardwoods which once properly managed to remove weed trees develops slower but much higher value timber?

2. Have you had difficulties with log buyers accepting loads from small time farmers?

3. About how much land would be required to net $10k yearly?

4. With the usual growth rate of 40-50 years from cutting to harvest, is it better with a large tract of land (say 150-200ac) to harvest trees sporadically throughout the woodland (assuming good roads throughout) or to clearcut/replant on 1/50th of the total land hence making it sustainable, with thinnings done on the 15th year? In other words, with say 150 acres, clearcutting 3 acres and thinning 3 per year would give 1/50th of the total land cut and thinned per year. Is this more time and labor efficient or would it be better to cut a tree here and there over all the land, of course with an eye to improving the stand continually?

Thanks for your input!

[Sawmill Jim]

Hope you got some deep pockets If i could afford 150 acres of good timber land i would retire . Here pine is near worthless . Have logged with tractors no fun . Hauling logs on a farm truck will work but again no fun .

Selling pulp wood unless you have a real means of production is bad at the best .Lots of sawmills and logging operations going broke fast .

If i were going to try anything i would look for land with tie size trees and set a mill on location . Again you need a good stash of cash to hold you over .

Just because you have run a chain saw don't make one a timber cutter i have been in the woods off on for forty years and i am not a timber cutter . I have been hit twice flipped one skidder in that time . Cutting prime trees you pull one splinter in the log just cost you a days pay or more .

Am sure there are more members on here can shed better light on the deal for you . I don;t mean to be discouraging but just tossing out things to get you to thinking .

[crehberg]

I'm a young pup from GA, but I'm going to give this a shot with my experience (grew up in a family of sawmill workers).

1. Is it better to invest in pine land which has a faster growth rate hence more frequent harvesting with a lower profit for labor, or hardwoods which once properly managed to remove weed trees develops slower but much higher value timber?

Here, hardwoods are hard to sell. Pine is the way to go, because that is what the mills buy. If you are truly serious, you are going to have to go build relations with mills to see what they are going to take. That is going to be the biggest part of your decision. Here in town, we have 3 pine mills and 1 (small) hardwood mill. You do the math.

2. Have you had difficulties with log buyers accepting loads from small time farmers?

Here, the log buyer doesn't really care. The only people you have a problem with are the "cutter companies" (the people who actually cut the trees, we call 'em timber companies around here). You aren't going to have a problem with that. However, if you aren't working with some kind of company, nobody is going to buy anything. I have yet to see a person just haul up a load of logs to the mill, dump 'em off, and get paid. Here, it is a complicated process, and sometimes it takes two weeks just to get paid for one weeks worth of timber. Like I said, I'm just giving you my experience. Your's may vary.

3. About how much land would be required to net $10k yearly?

I have no clue as far as hardwoods. Here, you would have to have A LOT of land to cut pine. We just had about 40 acres of 16-20 year old pine "plantation thinned", and ended up in the area of where you're looking price-wise. However, it will be another 20 years (at least) before those trees need to be cut again.

4. With the usual growth rate of 40-50 years from cutting to harvest, is it better with a large tract of land (say 150-200ac) to harvest trees sporadically throughout the woodland (assuming good roads throughout) or to clearcut/replant on 1/50th of the total land hence making it sustainable, with thinnings done on the 15th year? In other words, with say 150 acres, clearcutting 3 acres and thinning 3 per year would give 1/50th of the total land cut and thinned per year. Is this more time and labor efficient or would it be better to cut a tree here and there over all the land, of course with an eye to improving the stand continually?

You will here proponents of both. Personally, because I am a "nature man", I let nature do "clear-cutting" with lightning strikes and bug damage. The only thing you'll ever see me clear-cut is grass. {I hate bermuda grass with a passion}

Overall, I'm not trying to tell you it's not possible. But timber land management is like farming: To make a small fortune, start with a big one!

Two other issues to look at: insurance and taxes. Here, if you timber yourself for profit, you have to carry extra insurance. And you better not be using a tractor and chainsaw. They will drop you like a bucket of bricks. We also have a county timber tax that takes a sizeable part of any timber earnings (and please don't ask me exact numbers, I think it is between 10-13%).

[Sawmill Jim]

Yep every area is different here hardwood rules pine can't give it away . Here once you talk to the sawmill or veneer buyer they will pay on delivery or end of week . Last white oak and walnut i sold buyer paid on location prior to delivery.

[Old Vet]

The problem with that is you must find a forest that has saw logs in it that are ready now and some that are ready next year. To earn 10K per year you will have to have more than 200 acres unless you plan to do all the work and have no overhead. It can be done but usually when somebody sells a timber tract they will cut everything they can before selling it and that will be 10 years before any saw logs are grown. I have heard about many that will buy timber tract that have saw logs on it and cut them to pay for the cost of the land but they never buy anything.

[fantasymaker]

If you do selective cutting its posable to cut more than 1/50 a year in hardwood.
Its sorta hard to explain.
Think of it like this. you have a forest with varied growth, You cut one large tree thats 50 (or100) years old that lets in more light to the trees that were around it.
They also have some years of growth on them already ,they dont start at seedling size or even at the 20 years old they are.
They start at 20 years old but very tall say the equivilent of 30 and then fill out. Of course if you also thin a few "pole Logs" from around them that provides income and more light to the remaining trees.
And dont forget to cut the tops for firewood.
I think if I were going this route Id buy a small sawmill and go all the way to boards with them.
Then sell a varity of products ,boards. slabs. poles,logs firewood,chips,mulch ,sawdust.

[chestnut]

I would recommend spending some time on www.forestryforum.com or www.woodweb.com. There's alot of info on both about forestry and sawing.

[Sawmill Jim]

Originally Posted by chestnut

I would recommend spending some time on www.forestryforum.com or www.woodweb.com. There's alot of info on both about forestry and sawing.

Been a member over at the Forestry Forum for years good place .

[agmantoo]

Welcome to the site!

I do what you are considering. I am setup to clear cut 1/40th of the timberland, all pines, each year. In actuality it doesn't work exactly like that. Pines ~14 years old are thinned, pines 20 years old are chip and saw and pines 28 to 30 plus years old are clear cut and I start over. If the market is way low nothing happens and when the market is very good I may have more timber cut. So I actually am getting an average over a longer period of time than a single year. The real difficulty is getting the system balanced to create a steady cash flow. I have been doing this for a number of years and it still is difficult to manage. Mostly it is a juggle for me. I can share something that may be more helpful than my rambling. The land should increase in value as the economy fluctuates and inflation continues. Do not look for the trees to give a return on the land. The trees will give a return on the tree investment. The percentage on the tree investment is rather good at around 13%. However, remember the tree money is just a small portion of the overall investment. Should you buy the land get the trees appraised immediately. If you harvest any trees the first year the amount you paid for the trees is subtracted from the income as you paid for the trees with money that was previously taxed. One thing about owning the tree property, provided you can stay current with the property tax you do not have to concern yourself with some shyster on Wall Street or in some bank misdirecting your investment or declaring bankruptcy.

[chestnut]

Hello Sawmill Jim,
I'm also a member, but I do more reading than posting. Same name over there as here.

[highlands]

We do timber as part of our farming. Much of what we produce is furniture grade maple but also some veneer grade and some lumber. Of course, there is a lot of pulp and firewood too. Not all trees make the grade. It takes a LOT of acres to do timbering in any large and sustainable way.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
Pastured Pigs, Sheep & Kids
in the mountains of Vermont
Read about our on-farm butcher shop project:
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/butchershop
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/csa