septic system question

[Ifistav]

hello everybody.

Last time I posted, I had another septic question, but this one's different: We found a house we like, put an offer, they accepted, and a couple of days we had the inspection done. Well, this is what came out of it (I'm quoting, because since I have no clue about septic tanks, I wouldn't know how to explain it):"Description of System:
The septic tank appears to be a cement dual compartment tank with two metal lids on the surface. The tank was not pumped at the time of inspection due to an unsatisfactory hydraulic load test. The septic tank is placed 43’ from the well, which is not indicative with DEP standards.
At the time of the inspection, the dwelling was vacant. A hydraulic load test was performed (please refer to absorption area section).
Absorption Area:
The absorption area consists of one trench. This trench measures 3’ wide by 30’ long. The hydraulic load test was performed and the system was not able to receive and distribute the required 400 gallons. The trench is approximately 46’ from the well, which is not indicative with DEP standards."

Besides that issue, which sounds costly (any ideas how much?), there's also the roof which should've been replaced "5 years ago". The windows also need to be changed, but when we put the offer, we knew that, so we were planning on doing it down the road.

So here's our dilemma (I guess the question is not only septic related, but negotiation related). Should we ask the sellers to fix the septic issue, plus give us money for the roof, or should we ask them to give us a check that'll cover the septic and roof? I know it's a lot of money, but I also believe that now that they know the septic is not working, it will be hard to sell without fixing it.

Any advice/ideas you can give me, will be greatly appreciated!!!

Thanks,

Ifi

[Cabin Fever]

It appears that you will need an entirely new septic system. There is a chance that the current septic tank can be used with the new system, but it will have to be moved to meet regulated setback to the well.

If it were me, I'd get some estimates for the new system and roof and reduce my offer by that amount. I'd rather pick the septic and roof company than have the current owner do it. You do know if the owner has the work done, he is going to base his decision solely on whoever gives him the low bid and not on the reputation and guarantees of the company doing the work.

[ronbre]

septic issue is a big deal..first..make sure there is room for at least two alternate drainfields..as you will have the NEW one and will require an alternate should that one fail in the future..have a perk test done on the area..most drainfields require a 40 x 60 area at least..and need to drain quickly..the county will have a person to do perk tests for you but you can go before them and check yourself..dig a hole..fill with water..the water should drain away quickly, and completely, if it doesn't try it somewhere else.

our son had to put his drainfield in front of his house cause the rear sloped down to wetlands..

believe well has to be 50 or more feet from drainfield..more is better and not downstream.

i would insist that the money for a new draiinfield and having the old filled in, be included in the costs as well as any other repairs..take that off of what you pay...present them with copies of your estimates

[Ifistav]

I don't want to reduce my offer by the cost, because then it's almost all coming out my pocket (offer is 225, I put down 20%, mortgage 80%. If offer is let's say 200, I still have to put down 20%, so in essence, I'm paying $5k less, which won't cover the expense of the fix).

Ifi

[Cabin Fever]

Originally Posted by Ifistav

I don't want to reduce my offer by the cost, because then it's almost all coming out my pocket (offer is 225, I put down 20%, mortgage 80%. If offer is let's say 200, I still have to put down 20%, so in essence, I'm paying $5k less, which won't cover the expense of the fix).

Ifi

I see. Then, if it were me, I'd get a check from the seller to cover the costs. I'm not sure how this is done, but I'd want to get the check at or before closing.

[The Paw]

Originally Posted by Ifistav

I don't want to reduce my offer by the cost, because then it's almost all coming out my pocket (offer is 225, I put down 20%, mortgage 80%. If offer is let's say 200, I still have to put down 20%, so in essence, I'm paying $5k less, which won't cover the expense of the fix).

Ifi

If you are getting a mortgage, the lender will want a working septic. They should not have a problem advancing a portion of the mortgage proceeds to a septic installer and the balance to the seller.

In other words, your mortgage was going to be $180,000 originally. Your lender now advances $20,000 to your septic guy, and $160,000 to the seller. You are not out of pocket, the lender has the same security, the lender has a working septic in that asset, and you get to choose your septic contractor.

[edcopp]

Sounds to me like the septic system is too close to the well. That is a big problem. The proper solution most likely will be a mew system, located the proper distance from the well, working properly, and inspected.

The roof replacement is a product of neglect. At least 5 years of that. Get the roof inspected too. Get a professional opinion, and some bids on both jobs.

Re-do your offer to include all the work needed. I would get bids from several qualified contractors, and select the contractors to do the work, in agreement with the seller. He will be the one paying the contractors. Whatever you do do not let the seller do the work. We already have evidence of what he thinks will pass muster, and it won't.

Now with firm bids in hand continue with the processing of the transaction. It goes something like this. You place your down payment with the escrow agent. The lender places the rest of the funds need with the escrow agent. You and the seller then have a closing. You get your deed, and locked in financial terms. The seller gets part of his money. The escrow company will hold the funds to do the repair work, in escrow. They will pay the contractors when the work is completed and properly inspected. When everything is completed they will release the excess funds to the seller. They usually hold 120% of the bid costs to make sure that things get done.

Result is that you get the financing that you want, and the work is done and inspected properly.

If the seller objects to this line of thinking, I would walk away. Life is too short to spend lots of time repairing other peoples neglect. It is a judgement call, but there are lots of houses for sale in todays market.

[nathan104]

Whether you can work on the septic and have it fixed may also be influenced by local building codes. Around here, old systems are grandfathered in but if work like that is needed you are supposed to put in a new aerobic system.

From the sounds of the report, not only is it a little too close to the well, bu there is only one lateral line (drain line) for the septic and it is not leaching properly. Could be it wasnt pumped regularly and sludge has clogged the pipe up. Could be they did not put down rock and just covered the leach line with dirt which clogged the line. Could be root penetration into the line, or it could be broken. You can replace the line yourself but its a lot of digging. Best to have several lines though instead of one. Having a two compartment tank is good, the one we have here is the old one compartment. With two compartments, most of the sludge will stay in the first one which helps keep the leach line from getting filled with sludge.

I would check the regs on required distance from the well. If only 50' is required and its only 47'. personally I wouldnt worry about that unless local code will make you fix it for some reason. Or, if you plan on selling this place in the future, it will come up again.

[Wolf mom]

Originally Posted by Ifistav

I don't want to reduce my offer by the cost, because then it's almost all coming out my pocket (offer is 225, I put down 20%, mortgage 80%. If offer is let's say 200, I still have to put down 20%, so in essence, I'm paying $5k less, which won't cover the expense of the fix).

Ifi

Your logic is flawed. reread what you wrote.

The contract shoud have read: Offer contingent upon a pumped and certified septic and buyer acceptance of inspection report. Seller to pay for all needed reapirs/replacements. OR seller/buyer to split costs 1/2 & 1/2 - or seller to pay for all costs above $XX - however you want to word it.

To have an accepted contract then try to go back and regenotiate is frustrating. And yes, the bank will want it working unless it was sold "as is".

[Wis Bang 2]

Last year when my mom sold, she had to have the septic replace b/4 closing. The contractor waited until closing for his payment. In PA the septic needs to be 100' from the well.

[Pink_Carnation]

Ditto here on the septic needs to be 100ft. from the well. With the well being closer than that you should also find out how deep is the well and what kind of soil is between the well and the septic drainfield.

With the roof...has it leaked or is it just at the end of its life? If it leaked you need to check for mold and moisture issues.

[Ifistav]

Thank you all for your replies, I knew I came to the right people for tips

Let me start backwards:
pink carnation, the roof has to be replaced "5 years ago", per the inspector. There's no sign of leak, mold, or moisture in the attic, but I'm sure if we get another winter like last year, it won't keep the moisture out, hehe.

wis bang The house we're looking to buy is in PA, in the Lancaster area, and the inspector said that the distance should be 50' (not 100'). I wonder if different counties have different laws?

wolf mom the contract has all those contingencies, and it does read that the seller has to give a proposal on what to do if the septic isn't acceptable, but I want to see what are all my options.

nathan104 I have a feeling if the contractor sees the distance being less than 50', he'll have it moved, so I believe the whole system would have to be moved.

edcopp, I agree, life's too short for that, so if they don't want to pay for it (escrow money), we're walking away from that house. Will be a shame, since we spent money on the inspection, and have all these people working for us (mortgages, buyer agent, etc), but at least we would know in advance and not have to find out after buying it.

the paw Spoke with my agent, and yes, that's how he explained it, thanks.

ronbre and cabin fever, thank you too for your advice.

Wow, I didn't realize so many people replied, again, thank you so much! I'll keep you posted. We're supposed to get back to the sellers by Tuesday.

Ifi

[rambler]

Originally Posted by Ifistav

I don't want to reduce my offer by the cost, because then it's almost all coming out my pocket (offer is 225, I put down 20%, mortgage 80%. If offer is let's say 200, I still have to put down 20%, so in essence, I'm paying $5k less, which won't cover the expense of the fix).

Ifi

Thank you. I never understood _why_ people would want the seller to fix something with cheap materials, and then pay full price, rather than just reducing the price by that amount, and the new buyer installing what they actually want.

Never got the point of that.

So it's all about wrapping the costs up in a loan is the issue.

Huh.

--->Paul

[TexasAggie]

Originally Posted by Ifistav

hello everybody.

Last time I posted, I had another septic question, but this one's different: We found a house we like, put an offer, they accepted, and a couple of days we had the inspection done. Well, this is what came out of it (I'm quoting, because since I have no clue about septic tanks, I wouldn't know how to explain it):"Description of System:
The septic tank appears to be a cement dual compartment tank with two metal lids on the surface. The tank was not pumped at the time of inspection due to an unsatisfactory hydraulic load test. The septic tank is placed 43’ from the well, which is not indicative with DEP standards.
At the time of the inspection, the dwelling was vacant. A hydraulic load test was performed (please refer to absorption area section).
Absorption Area:
The absorption area consists of one trench. This trench measures 3’ wide by 30’ long. The hydraulic load test was performed and the system was not able to receive and distribute the required 400 gallons. The trench is approximately 46’ from the well, which is not indicative with DEP standards."

Besides that issue, which sounds costly (any ideas how much?), there's also the roof which should've been replaced "5 years ago". The windows also need to be changed, but when we put the offer, we knew that, so we were planning on doing it down the road.

So here's our dilemma (I guess the question is not only septic related, but negotiation related). Should we ask the sellers to fix the septic issue, plus give us money for the roof, or should we ask them to give us a check that'll cover the septic and roof? I know it's a lot of money, but I also believe that now that they know the septic is not working, it will be hard to sell without fixing it.

Any advice/ideas you can give me, will be greatly appreciated!!!

Thanks,

Ifi

Do you have satisfactory bacteriological samples from the water well. If the septic system has contaminated the water well, it may also have to be replaced.

[whodunit]

We are making an offer on an 110 year old farmhouse that had a septic tank which drains into a ditch. Idaho doesn't "grandfather", so it will need a drain field. The seller says there is enough room on the lot (almost half an acre) for it, so we are making him prove it. We made an offer that it be installed per state/county specs.

There comes a point where a seller needs to make their house salable, especially if it's been on the market as long as this one has.

[Ifistav]

texasaggie, there's some bacteria in the water, no e.coli, but the inspector said that there's a system that can be installed for $2k or so. The bacteria could be because the house has been sitting empty for some time, that's what he said.

Ifi

[halfpint]

You need to discuss this with your mortgage company also. My son purchased a house this spring, and the bank he was getting the loan from required a home inspection. After the inspection, they required a few things to be repaired before closing and a few things he had to agree to repair within a certain time frame or before use, but most of the items on the inspection they didn't care about. The things that had to be repaired before closing were paid to the company that did the repairs at closing. Since the sellers had already moved out of town, my son got the estimates for the required repairs from contractors that he trusted, and the sellers agreed.
Dawn

[TexasAggie]

Originally Posted by Ifistav

texasaggie, there's some bacteria in the water, no e.coli, but the inspector said that there's a system that can be installed for $2k or so. The bacteria could be because the house has been sitting empty for some time, that's what he said.

Ifi

Proper sampling is to obtain water from the well and not water that has been in the house piping for a significant time. You might consider disinfecting the well for 24 hrs, and then having another sample collected. Run the water for 30 minutes to 45 minutes (well pump turns on for several minutes), then turn off the water, disinfect the sample location, then turn on hte water and collect sample. If bacteria still present (get a total count).

[Billie in MO]

Here's my septic story for you. We bought a house in Feb, with a working septic, however it drained into a flower bed, no leech field. We went VA and they required it brought up to code. Seller had to place $15,000 in an escrow account with the title company. Soil tests revealed a rock ledge, so no leech field, had to have an evaporation pond.

The seller hired someone to do the work and he had 30 days to complete it. Should have been done by the end of March. It finally got done, LAST WEEK! 7 months of sheer nonsense and excuses by the guy. We didn't hire him so we couldn't fire him. However, the last month, the bank and title company both said to go get a quote from someone else as they were just as frustrated. And they would deal with the consequences.

And he did a cheap, cheap job with the fence and gate around the pond. Lied about what he was going to do there, too.

[dragonjaze]

Sounds like more of a hassle than it's worth. Plenty of other houses on the market right now!