water pressure tank ...

motdaugrnds · #1 09/20/10, 02:10 PM

I think our water pressure tank has air in it. How do we find out; and if it does, how do we get it out (short of buying a new one)?

The Paw · #2 09/20/10, 02:26 PM

If it is a pressure tank with a diaphragm, and the air has got in because there is a leak in the diaphragm, you probably need a new one.

If it is a none diaphragm tank, do a search for posts by Agmantoo. He has explained this in a number of threads, and is generally acknowledged as knowing this subject, and giving very detailed instructions.

Txrider · #3 09/20/10, 02:33 PM

All pressure tanks require air to be in them, or they will not hold any pressure. It is the air in the tank that compresses as the tank fills with water that makes the pressure. No air, no pressure.

The problem usually comes when they have no air in them. Pump cycles constantly on and off.

Some have a big rubber bag full of air in them, a "bladder" tank, they are the devils work..

Should have a valve stem on it like a car tire.. When the bladder pops or leaks, and it will, generally you need a new tank.

Others are plain galvanized steel tanks with simply an air pocket that has to be replenished, usually with what is called an "air control valve" setup. It usually will fail over time needing to be replaced, but only costs a few dollars.

motdaugrnds · #4 09/20/10, 06:49 PM

Thank you both for helping. David is pretty sure ours has a "bladder".

The Paw, I have no idea how to do a search for Agmantoo's threads in these forums. Can you instruct me?

Edited: I did find the "search" button at the top of this page and clicked it; then put in "Agmantoo" for "threads" and got message he had about 500 threads. However, it took me right back to the same forum this thread is on and I saw nothing here started by Agmantoo; so I am lost as to what to do next.

agmantoo · #5 09/20/10, 07:32 PM

motdaugrnds

My searches do not always yield what I am searching for either. How about I just assist you? I do expect you to work through the problem and not disappear after I have typed a bunch. Fair enough? I have to ask lots of questions in order to give responses. You say you have air in you bladder tank. As others have stated. Air in the tank is essential for the system to function properly. Now for some questions. WE need to be positive the tank is a bladder design. Is the tank a painted tank or is a galvanized exterior finish? Can you see a name on the tank and/or can you see a schrader valve (like on a car tire where you fill air) on the top of the tank? If there is a schrader valve push in on the valve stem briefly and see if you get water or air and acknowledge your findings. Do you have access to compressed air and do you have a tire pressure gauge? You may need these. Is the pressure gauge on the well system working? We must have a working gauge. Has your pump been cycling off and on frequently even when you catch only a little water from a spigot? This will get us started.

artificer · #6 09/20/10, 07:46 PM

First off... why do you think it has air in it? The pressure tank is there to prevent the short cycling of the pump that you get without one.

Next, there are two types of tank. The old galvanized style that is just a tank, and the newer bladder type. The old style is larger for the same water capacity, since it starts with atmospheric air pressure. Simple, cheap, and about the only drawback besides the extra size is that they get watter logged. All you have to do is add air (or drain the tank) and its good to go for a while.

The bladder type gets a precharge of air pressure, and that is the minimum line pressure you'll see, until its empty, then the pressure drops to zero. Normally, the pump kicks in before then to maintain pressure. A simple test on this style is to turn off the pump, and open a faucet untill the pressure is gone. Use a tire pressure gage and check the pressure on top of the tank. It should read a couple of psi lower than what the pump pressure switch is set to turn on at.

As for searching, my favorite way is to click on the search button, then select advanced. You put the user name where it says "user name", click on the "Show results as: Posts" on the bottom left of the page, and then enter something in the subject line, in this case "pressure tank". You should get a list of his posts that have the phrase "pressure tank" in them.

Like I said before, tell us the symptoms, and we'll help.

Michael

Edit: never mind... he posted already.

motdaugrnds · #7 09/21/10, 08:45 AM

WOW! I am so very grateful for the information and help in this forum. You two are very kind to take the time for this.

I am copying down what both of you have said and, when David arrives, I will give him your instructions so he can go check all you've said out.

Agmantoo, in noway will I disappear. I will answer all questions and be grateful for all information/instructions given.

Artificer, your information is so nicely clear. I know David will appreciate that a lot. Also, yes, I did as you suggested as to searching and it works great. Thank you.

I will return! ..... You can count on it!

Txrider · #8 09/21/10, 08:57 AM

A picture of the well and pump would likely make things a lot easier too.

motdaugrnds · #9 09/21/10, 09:38 AM

Ok I will ask David to take pics.

motdaugrnds · #10 09/23/10, 05:38 PM

I have absolutely not abandoned this thread. We found a water leak and David has fixed it. Then we discovered our favorite rooster had hurt his feet and had to work on those. David just hasn't had time to get some pictures of the pressure tank yet. After he fixed the water leak, we still have air in the lines. Pictures are coming soon.

The Paw · #11 09/23/10, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motdaugrnds

I have absolutely not abandoned this thread. We found a water leak and David has fixed it. Then we discovered our favorite rooster had hurt his feet and had to work on those. David just hasn't had time to get some pictures of the pressure tank yet. After he fixed the water leak, we still have air in the lines. Pictures are coming soon.

Is the air in your lines, or in your pressure tank?

It would be good if you could describe what symptoms brought this to your attention.

As others posted, your pressure tank is supposed to have air in it, to create the pressure that pushes the water to the tap. People usually have a problem if they have no air in their tank, because then the pump comes on every time someone turns on a tap.

If you have air in your lines, that is different. If you faucets are spitting air and water, you may be getting air in your lines. I am no expert on this, but that might be caused by a problem at your intake.

What is your water source? If it is a well with a submersible pump, maybe the water level has dropped and your pump is sucking some air with the water?

motdaugrnds · #12 09/23/10, 09:43 PM

The Paw, we have considered that as our well is only 79' deep. (Our pressure tank does have a bladder.) The faucets spitting is what started our concerns. We found one of our outdoor faucets had a leak. David fixed that yesterday evening. if the water level in the well did get low, we are hoping that stopping the leak will permit the water level in the well to deepen. [It would be terrible (maybe even impossible) to have another well dug.]

The Paw · #13 09/24/10, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motdaugrnds

The Paw, we have considered that as our well is only 79' deep. (Our pressure tank does have a bladder.) The faucets spitting is what started our concerns. We found one of our outdoor faucets had a leak. David fixed that yesterday evening. if the water level in the well did get low, we are hoping that stopping the leak will permit the water level in the well to deepen. [It would be terrible (maybe even impossible) to have another well dug.]

Okay, so in the absence of any other symptom or indication, it doesn't sound like there is any issue with your pressure tank. I would wait to see if fixing the leak solves the problem.

In the meantime, you might want to check for other leaks. If you put food colouring in your toilet tank and then wait for 10 minutes, it should tell you if you have a leaky toilet (if the food colouring appears in the bowl without flushing, your flapper is leaking). Most undetected leaks are around the toilet.

motdaugrnds · #14 09/24/10, 09:39 AM

Thank you. That is something we had not considered because we had thought even a tiny leak from the flapper would show up in some type of flow in the bowl; and we had not noticed any.

motdaugrnds · #15 09/25/10, 10:52 AM

It has been a couple of days now since David stopped the leak in outdoor faucet. We have not had anymore spitting when turning on faucets in the house.

I am concerned, however, about our water "heater". There has not been any spitting when turning on the hot water; but not sure if that is indicative of there not being any air in this heater. Is there a way we can find out if the air did get into the water heater; and if so, how do we get it out?

Maybe an understanding of how water/air & water would actually get in would help me understand. (I have this visualization of the internal piping of this water heater as being where the water from our water pressure tank flows into the tank at the "top" and is taken out for use from the "bottom" of that water heater. If so, seems to me air would accumulate at the top and not be noticed unless we actually drained the tank. Is this true?)

The Paw · #16 09/25/10, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motdaugrnds

It has been a couple of days now since David stopped the leak in outdoor faucet. We have not had anymore spitting when turning on faucets in the house.

I am concerned, however, about our water "heater". There has not been any spitting when turning on the hot water; but not sure if that is indicative of there not being any air in this heater. Is there a way we can find out if the air did get into the water heater; and if so, how do we get it out?

Maybe an understanding of how water/air & water would actually get in would help me understand. (I have this visualization of the internal piping of this water heater as being where the water from our water pressure tank flows into the tank at the "top" and is taken out for use from the "bottom" of that water heater. If so, seems to me air would accumulate at the top and not be noticed unless we actually drained the tank. Is this true?)

your hot water faucets draw hot water from the top of the tank. the cold water comes in at the bottom, near the element, and as it is heated, the hot water rises to the top. So the tanks generally draw the hot water from the top. So if you are not getting any air spitting when you turn on you hot water tank, you either have no air in your hot water tank, or not enough to worry about.

You should drain and flush your hot water heater once a year. If you google for instructions on how to do this, you might encounter a diagram which shows how the water flows in a water heater.

motdaugrnds · #17 09/29/10, 08:52 AM

The Paw, thank you so much. You have been a great help and I appreciate your staying with me as you have.

I will give David this information and, as soon as he can get to it, we will drain this heater. We never knew it needed to be drained yearly; and I have learned the hard way that ignorance makes for poor maintenance.

The Paw · #18 09/29/10, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motdaugrnds

The Paw, thank you so much. You have been a great help and I appreciate your staying with me as you have.

I will give David this information and, as soon as he can get to it, we will drain this heater. We never knew it needed to be drained yearly; and I have learned the hard way that ignorance makes for poor maintenance.

Make sure you turn the power off when you drain the heater! You don't want it heating empty space.

If you search on Youtube, you can get step-by-step videos on the flushing procedure.

Good luck.

motdaugrnds · #19 09/30/10, 08:50 AM

ok will do

Just did and all I found were "Kits" to flush water heaters that I could purchase. Surely there is a way to flush out a water heater without buying something.

I'm thinking of just draining it and permitting it to refill.

Just discovered another situation that is disturbing me (in my ignorance). "One" of our toilets has air trying to get out as the tank refills after it is flushed. The flapper is not leaking and no other toilet or faucet in the house is spitting air. This toilet is the one closest to the water pressure tank. Its tank does go ahead and refill; just lets out a lot of air as it does.

fishhead · #20 09/30/10, 09:53 AM

I believe that "spitting" is caused by air in the line. I just hooked my new well up and the spitting stopped immediately. I'm pretty sure the temporary line had a leaky joint between the pump and the bottom of the well.

In order for air to enter the plumbing system it has to come in on the intake (suction) side of the pump. That puts the leak somewhere between the pump and the bottom of the well.