Vegetarian Homesteaders - care to share? :)

[SilverFlame819]

All constructive or thoughtful opinions and comments welcome... Please, no flaming or rude remarks!

I'm in the planning stages for a hopefully-organic homestead, and am continually surprised at the little things that are different for a vegetarian than for an omnivore. I'm finding the planning more in-depth than I thought it would be, having grown up taking care of and raising animals - even animals that were bred and raised for meat - on a farm with omnivores. I find myself thinking it would just be so much easier if I wasn't such a bleeding-heart hippie, that being an omnivore makes things simpler.

The current debate in my head is... Do worms feel pain? Are worms considered more of an animal or an insect? Do they think and have emotions? You can make pretty good money harvesting worms from rabbit manure for fishing. But I feel bad "harming" things. Even if fish naturally eat worms, my harvesting the worm for death just makes me feel terrible, and I don't feel right considering it. These kinds of moral dilemmas are frustrating to me. I would like to make easy money off a creature that is going to be growing large and fat on my land, but can't justify hurting the poor little things, and to top it off -- not all people who fish enjoy catch & release, so the act of selling worms could also contribute to the death of fish... I know that it is exactly these kinds of things that make omnivores roll their eyes and look at me like I'm nuts... and I don't blame them.

I am trying to keep my list of animals "dual-purpose", so each animal can contribute at least one thing other than just the sale of itself or its offspring. For goats, this can be fiber or milk. For sheep, the same. But rabbits? I love showing rabbits. But pretty much all rabbits are good for are show and food. The fur is only harvestable in most breeds upon death. I love Jersey Woolies, so plan to have them, but the amount of wool harvested from a rabbit (especially a small one) is not much, and I'll be harvesting until the day the rabbit dies before I get enough to make anything decent out of it! I do not like full-size rabbits, so am not really wanting to go with Angoras. My other 3 favorite breeds are not dual-purpose by any stretch of the imagination unless I sell them on the pet trade, which I am not fond of (so many millions of rabbits in rescue right now!)... Again... So I have to decide whether I want to contribute to the pet industry or simply not raise rabbits... and I do so miss my rabbits!

On the sheep and goat front... Only so many wethers go for pets/packing/fiber before you have surplus, so of course, at some point, you're going to be selling ram lambs and bucklings to the meat trade. The only way I can think to get around this is to simply not ask what they want the sheep or goat for. In the past, I've taken my wethers to the auction simply so I didn't have to know and so the customers wouldn't feel they had to lie to me. I feel it is other people's right to eat animals just as it is my right to not eat them, but I can't knowingly sell them to someone for the dinner table, so this is how I've gotten around the issue in my head.

On the issue of chickens... I LOVE chickens. I used to have well over 200 and I sold eggs and incubated/hatched chicks for sale. The baby chicks I always sold non-sexed so I never had the issue of rooster chicks and what to do with them. But I am faced with older hens whose production slows down and/or stops. A conventional homestead would cull those birds... Sell them off or drop them in the soup pot. I do get attached to my animals (they all have names), so I'm thinking in the future, I'll either have to get over that and sell my hens whose production lowers or deal with the loss of money as she continues to eat lots of food but produces less and less. I certainly couldn't sell my girls FOR soup pot purposes, but who is going to want a girl who has a slower production? I'm very honest, so I wouldn't be hiding the truth about the lower production rate... and I think that right there means that I'll end up with hens that nobody wants to buy... or that they only want for the soup pot.

As a younger tree-huggin' omnivore, I felt terrible about animals who had to die but felt like it was not my place to say anything because I was still eating them. As an older vegetarian I am obviously seeing now how difficult it is to create a self-sustaining vegetarian venture if I want to breed and raise animals. (It certainly makes me understand why so many vegetarians throw in the towel and either go vegan, or go back to eating meat). I think that although it's mildly frustrating, it's worth it to me. The hardest points are finding a stable middle ground where the animals are still paying for themselves, and figuring out exactly where you stand on every little issue.

Backgrounding dairy heifers, for instance... Is it okay? Most vegetarians are lacto-ovo, and those of us who don't have dairy animals support the dairy industry, and most of those cows are slaughtered around age 3... Is it okay then to support the industry? I would enjoy raising some calves again, although I have no interest in owning adult cattle for any reason, so backgrounding dairy heifers makes more sense to me than backgrounding beef calves, as people eat just as many beef heifers as they do steers.

Ohhh, the whole thing makes my brain hurt!

So yeah... Please, tell me what you've found to be a challenge and share any other thoughts, comments, or info. What have you found you've had to work harder for? Any little things that have popped up that you didn't know you'd ever have to worry about until it arose? Are there any things you do differently than a conventional farmer or homesteader because of the veggie background?


Angela

[rambler]

I really don't have much to offer as help, but I wanted to say I enjoyed reading your message.

I believe milk cows get older than 3 years, anyhow double that I'd think?

What happens to alpacas? They harvest the wool from them, never really saw alpaca burgers or steaks, how are they dealt with as time moves along?

I suspect we will suggest you raise a bigger garden & think less about animals, but that's not really helping you any.....

--->Paul

[gone-a-milkin]

*steps carefully away from thread, w/o comment*

[Wolf mom]

Originally Posted by gone-a-milkin

*steps carefully away from thread, w/o comment*

I, too, shall follow your footsteps with locked lips.....

[Patt]

Interesting! I will be watching to see what sort of responses you get. I know there are plenty of vegetarians who farm so hopefully you will get some help.

[Dexter]

Check out "The Good Life".

[SilverFlame819]

*lol* Come on... Running away without comment!?

I know, I walk a thin line... I'm a vegetarian because animals are my passion, not because I love celery, so the bigger garden won't help my "problem"... I want animals! It's just... a bit ridiculous trying to juggle.

[SilverFlame819]

Originally Posted by rambler

I believe milk cows get older than 3 years, anyhow double that I'd think?

What happens to alpacas? They harvest the wool from them, never really saw alpaca burgers or steaks, how are they dealt with as time moves along?

I'm not sure. You'd think they would live longer than 3 years since it takes a year to raise them up to breeding size. A statistic I read recently said 3 years was the average. I am not sure how they came to this statistic though. If it was higher, that would rock... and make me feel better about raising replacement heifers.

On the alpaca and llama front... I've never heard of people in this country eating them. Do they eat them in South America? Not a clue there either. I'm not interested much in llamas or alpacas... And with what a nice fiber alpaca costs, I could buy an entire farm for the price of just a few!

[willow_girl]

OK, here's what I think, having faced similar ethical questions.

I'd leave the worms in the garden; they're good for the soil. Incidentally, I don't use a tiller because I like my worms; I don't want to harm them if I can possibly avoid it.

I always was able to sell my kids and lambs for pets (although one guy I knew did end up eating one of the lambs after it grew up, grew horns and butted his shed right off the foundation! Oy! Can't say I really blamed him for that).

I gave up breeding my cows because they're old; I didn't want to risk their lives by way of pregnancy and lactation; and they get so attached to their calves that I could never bring myself to sell another one (and I DO NOT need anymore cows to feed!).

When I had chickens, I kept them forever (or at least 'til the fox got them! Grrrr.) The cost of their feed was negligible as they clean up everything spilled by the other animals and ate bugs out of the garden.

Never had rabbits, so I can't comment on those.

My critters have always been companions ... I've never seen them as money-makers, which is probably a good thing. LOL

I do make some money selling plants, and the critters contribute fertilizer to the equation, which is how I justify their continued (and very expensive) existence.

[SilverFlame819]

Originally Posted by Dexter

Check out "The Good Life".

Okay, searched the term at my library online... Like 3,000 results?

Book, movie, author, year, etc? Help please!

["simon says"]

well...i myself was a vegetarian when i started as a meat cutter, that was 12 years ago..
at a certain point it was too hard to eat and work with sanity..yep i eat meat no prob but with love,,,
in my opinion , you will just have to accept the black for black and the white for white, and just not worry about it, (dont eat meat or kill worms/and let others buy and eat your meat and use your worms as bait) this aint a perfect world, and honestly it seems unlikely to be so any time soon..lol

[SilverFlame819]

Originally Posted by willow_girl

I always was able to sell my kids and lambs for pets (although one guy I knew did end up eating one of the lambs after it grew up, grew horns and butted his shed right off the foundation! Oy! Can't say I really blamed him for that).

When I had chickens, I kept them forever (or at least 'til the fox got them! Grrrr.) The cost of their feed was negligible as they clean up everything spilled by the other animals and ate bugs out of the garden.

My critters have always been companions ... I've never seen them as money-makers, which is probably a good thing. LOL

I do make some money selling plants, and the critters contribute fertilizer to the equation, which is how I justify their continued (and very expensive) existence.

Hi, Willow. When I was raising milk/show goats, I also sold the wethers as pets. But when I started raising sheep, I found that the few people keeping fiber pets mostly want rare/heritage breeds. I think that's the route I'll be taking in the future, but still... I plan to have many more sheep and goats than I did in the past, and am concerned about the increased numbers of boy babies that will be appearing in the spring. I have also kept my chicken "forever" ("forever" = until the beautiful Bald Eagles moved into the neighborhood). I would like my animals to be money-makers. I want then to at least pay for themselves to justify keeping them. I don't have the money for a "hobby farm", and the time it would take to take care of the amount of animals I plan to have won't allow me to have a full time job outside of the farm. And you're right, they do get quite expensive... Although I've never had a herd of cattle to feed! I did live on a beef cattle operation when I was younger though... Man those things can eat!! Your cows better be grateful you like them so much!

Thanks for your comments! I think the word "vegetarian" is going to scare away a lot of people...

Angela

[willow_girl]

Oh, as far as the cow question: Dairy cows are bred to calve at 2 and then every year subsequently. Their lives are measured not in years but in lactations. A 2-year-old cow who has had 1 calf generally is referred to as a "first-calf heifer" while a cow who has had 2 would be called a "second-lactation cow" (and so on).

Cows generally don't leave the herd (get sold for slaughter) unless there's a reason for it. Many times animals are sold because they have a health problem that either impacts their profitability (for instance, mastitis) or that is at least potentially life-threatening (Johne's, displaced abomasum, bad feet and/or legs). Now I hate to see a cow culled, but in some cases it is humane -- it will end her suffering. Generally a cow isn't shipped unless she's in good enough condition that the farmer and hauler estimate she can make the trip upright and walk off the trailer. Laws have gotten much more stringent where "downers" are concerned; I agree with this in some aspects, but in others, not so much. (Used to be if a cow broke her leg, you could get a mobile meat packer out to butcher her and put her in your freezer, but now that's outlawed because she's considered a downer ... which is kind of silly, IMO).

Normal, healthy cows generally don't get sent to slaughter unless they fail to become pregnant within a reasonable period of time (depends on the farmer). Sometimes a cow is culled because she doesn't give enough milk to be profitable, but this is relatively rare.

Some cows do indeed bomb out in their first or second lactation for a variety of reasons. OTOH, I've seen one go 11 lactations on the farm where I work now. Currently there is some impetus in the industry to select for genetics that increase cows' lifespan. This trait is referred to as "productive life."

[willow_girl]

I would like my animals to be money-makers.

Well, good luck with that. (I mean that in the nicest possible way.)

BTW, this is 3/4 of the herd I slave to feed ... yeah, they are fat!

[SilverFlame819]

I went to the state fair last weekend... I'd rather see a Holstein fat and sassy than skin and bones and having trouble finding a comfortable way to lay because they're too skinny!

Cute cows!! Sometimes I find myself thinking cows are really cute and maybe I'd like a miniature one... Then I have to slap myself on the hand. Like I won't have my hands full enough!!

[Jerngen]

Originally Posted by Dexter

Check out "The Good Life".

Originally Posted by SilverFlame819

Okay, searched the term at my library online... Like 3,000 results?

Book, movie, author, year, etc? Help please!

It's a book I also enjoyed reading by Helen and Scott Nearing

http://www.amazon.com/Good-Life-Near...4699533&sr=8-1

There's also a second book after that. I believe it's called "Loving and Leaving The Good Life".

[sdnapier]

SilverFlame,

I share your concerns as I too do not want to kill it in order to eat it. I am only urban homesteading and don't even have chickens yet. But when I learned that chooks only produce about 3 years I had to think about how long I could keep them on as pets while I got more to produce eggs. How many chickens would I eventually end up with who are freeloading on me?!

My folks bought a little jersey cow when I was a teen and eventually she failed to conceive, dried up, and they ate her!!! Poor Bessie Moo Cow.

About your rabbits...my understanding is they produce the only fertilizer that can be used directly on the garden. Can anyone verify that? I may look into having some for this reason. So at my house their dual purpose would be entertainment and poop. :-) Does that count?

I don't use a tiller because it does tear up the worms but also destroys the micro-eco systems in the ground over time. I do use a shovel though and I am sure that bothers something. I guess we could be like those monks that sweep the ground in front of them so they don't step on ants...tee hee.

Stick to your guns, I admire what you are doing, and let us know how it is working for you.

[Buffy in Dallas]

Though I'm not a vegetarian, I understand the attachment to animals. I can't till the garden because I might hurt the worms. I raise chickens for eggs. Wanted to butcher some but just couldn't do it. Ya, I'm a hypocrite. I eat em but can't kill em.
Several of my hens are 8 years old now. They don't lay but their cute. My solution to unwanted hens/roosters is to let them free-range on the farm. They join the "web of life" soon enough! Hawks, coyotes, wild pigs, dogs...
(Hawks have to eat too ya know!)
My lay hens stay in the chicken tractors.

I also insist that all critters be "dual-purpose". I'm looking at some Leicester Longwool Sheep, California Red Sheep and Angora Goats since I'm a spinner.
All can be used for fiber, milk, meat and land clearing.
Bees are for honey and pollination of the garden.

My critters have never "paid for themselves" but just the joy of having them around is priceless.

[Lyra]

I have allergies that make it impossible for me to raise animals. I also am a supporter of animal rights and natural farming. So you can see that I am in a similar situation of not being the typical homesteader. I have found that you make it work in your own way with homesteading. Everybody's path is different. Not everyone needs to raise animals. My main focus is gardening. I started a few years ago and found that I adore it.

[ChristyACB]

Ditto with not hurting the worms. I usually try to keep the raised beds super dry with a plastic sheet so they burrow very deep before I start spading up the top to mix in new compost every year. It works! Give it a try.

As an aside: I had no worms when I got here and finally got worms with great attention and cost to be self supporting. So it isn't just because I really hate getting half a worm on my spade but also because I don't want to disturb the ongoing establishment.

As for what they are: Worms are strange because they don't actually have a brain like you'd think. Rather they have a simple neural complex. So no, they have responsive avoidance but even if they are being baked on a sidewalk they don't feel it.