Question about Sludge

[Navotifarm]

So I bought the local paper last week and looked at the Legal ads. There is one which is a marvel of doublespeak. It is a pollution abatement ad askinfor a new permit to spread sludge on 54 sites totaling 9,142.3 acres on agricultural land. What I know about sludge is that it STINKS. So apparently it has not been composted or mixed with cellulose. The flies in the area are overwhelming in the summer. I went to some VERY acrimonious public hearings in Orange some years ago and remember a dairy farmer, almost in tears saying how their pasture greened up and how much money they saved in fertilizer. I remember thinking about all the photographic and medical waste and diseases getting spread on the land along with all the "night soil." I do compost my own "humanure" but in a high carbon ratio.No chemicals. I would never use this compost for food crops but I do use it for gourds. I thought Orange had decided to NOT spread sludge but apparently I was wrong.
Who on here knows about spreading sludge and what is your considered opinion?

[TnAndy]

Don't know about the flies, but I would be more concerned about the chemical composition/heavy metals, considering what folks flush down drains.

[Old Vet]

The sludge is injected into the ground. The smell is not that bad. I would put it into the ground for pasture but not for any food crops not even pasture for milk cows or goats.The best thing to do is to dry it and then you can sell it as fertilizer and mulch.

[Cabin Fever]

I have regulated and managed sewage all of my career. I am a professional soil scientist, I have researched the use of sewage sludge as a fertilizer since the early-1970s. My Masters Degree thesis dealt with the use of sewage sludge...which we now call biosolids...as fertilizer. I have spoken on the beneficial use of biosolids at national EPA and Water Environment Federation conferences. I have managed the largest biosolids recycling program in Minnesota for 13 years and currently I regulate Minnesota cities that process and land apply biosolids and septic tank pumpers who land apply septage. I am not bragging, I just want to establish the fact that I know something...I know a lot...about this subject.

The recycling of biosolids is heavily regulated by state and federal regulations. Biosolids are required to be treated kill pathogenic organisms and reduce odors. If odors cannot be lessened, it is required to be incorporated or injected into the soil. Heavy metals concentrations are 90% less than they were 30 years ago. Nowadays, cities regulate industries that use the sewer system. Heavy metals concentrations in biosolids are about the same as they are in natural soil (yes, all soils naturally contain heavy metals, even lead, cadmium and mercury). The apprehension over pharmaceuticals, antibiotics and hormones is unfounded in the soil environment. Soil is the best place to put these compounds because the soil is an environment where they will easily decompose. Besides, most of these compounds are too large to be taken up by plant roots.

At any rate, biosolids use could be expanded greatly in this country. About 50% of the biosolids production in the US is utilized, the other 50% is wasted (landfilled or incinerated). Biosolids have been used on probably every golf course in the USA over the past 70 years. Milorganite and Houactinite and other biosolids products are heavily used to fertilize citrus crops in the southeast. Everyone of us in the USA has eaten corn flakes or drank orange juice where some of it was grown with the use of biosolids fertilizer....that's a fact. Biosolids have been used to fertilize the White House lawn....right where Michelle planted her vegetable garden.

The safe and beneficial use of biosolids is necessary to have a sustainable environment. The EPA, USDA, FDA and all state environmental agencies support the safe and beneficial use of biosolids. If we want to use a truly sustainable approach to all food, fiber and feed production, every bit of organic waste must be used efficiently, including biosolids, septage, manures, food-processing wastes, wood ash, etc.

[DaleK]

We've used biosolids here for over 20 years. The only heavy metal concern with the local city is high copper levels due to their manufacturing background. They're only allowed to spread half rates due to copper.
When you run soil tests on soil around here that hasn't had biosolids, one thing you notice that's badly deficient is.... copper. So for all the people worrying about the heavy metals around here, we actually need MORE of the only heavy metal that's a factor in what's available.
Beyond that, I'll go with Cabin Fever.

[Oldcountryboy]

Not far from here where I live is a site that turns human sludge into fertilizer. They mix the fertilizer with fly ash (burnt coal dust) and, if I remember right, lime. Then they cook it through a heated tumbler. Out the other end comes out hot fertilizer which they pile up and let cool for a few days and then they sack it up and sell it.

[texican]

If Only. If only you could get biosolids around here. Pretty much every chicken rancher also raises cattle... they have the greenest hay meadows around, and zero fertilizer bills. Their extra hay is heavily coveted.

I'd love just a one time chicken poo event on my meadow.

[majik]

I'm with Cabin Fever! Sewage slusge, properly treated and applied in reasonable and responsible rates is a significant benefit to agricultural land. That being said, I would also strongly recommend injection as an application method, not just to reduce odor, but also to aerate the soil and ensure the nutrients aren't lost to the air. In addition, the price of commercial fertilizer has become so expensive that biosolids are an inexpensive (sometimes free) way for producers to fertilize. Here's some information about the Ontario program: http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/.../agusesbio.htm

[TnAndy]

Originally Posted by Cabin Fever

I have regulated and managed sewage all of my career. I am a professional soil scientist, I have researched the use of sewage sludge as a fertilizer since the early-1970s. My Masters Degree thesis dealt with the use of sewage sludge...which we now call biosolids...as fertilizer. I have spoken on the beneficial use of biosolids at national EPA and Water Environment Federation conferences. I have managed the largest biosolids recycling program in Minnesota for 13 years and currently I regulate Minnesota cities that process and land apply biosolids and septic tank pumpers who land apply septage. I am not bragging, I just want to establish the fact that I know something...I know a lot...about this subject.

The recycling of biosolids is heavily regulated by state and federal regulations. Biosolids are required to be treated kill pathogenic organisms and reduce odors. If odors cannot be lessened, it is required to be incorporated or injected into the soil. Heavy metals concentrations are 90% less than they were 30 years ago. Nowadays, cities regulate industries that use the sewer system. Heavy metals concentrations in biosolids are about the same as they are in natural soil (yes, all soils naturally contain heavy metals, even lead, cadmium and mercury). The apprehension over pharmaceuticals, antibiotics and hormones is unfounded in the soil environment. Soil is the best place to put these compounds because the soil is an environment where they will easily decompose. Besides, most of these compounds are too large to be taken up by plant roots.

At any rate, biosolids use could be expanded greatly in this country. About 50% of the biosolids production in the US is utilized, the other 50% is wasted (landfilled or incinerated). Biosolids have been used on probably every golf course in the USA over the past 70 years. Milorganite and Houactinite and other biosolids products are heavily used to fertilize citrus crops in the southeast. Everyone of us in the USA has eaten corn flakes or drank orange juice where some of it was grown with the use of biosolids fertilizer....that's a fact. Biosolids have been used to fertilize the White House lawn....right where Michelle planted her vegetable garden.

The safe and beneficial use of biosolids is necessary to have a sustainable environment. The EPA, USDA, FDA and all state environmental agencies support the safe and beneficial use of biosolids. If we want to use a truly sustainable approach to all food, fiber and feed production, every bit of organic waste must be used efficiently, including biosolids, septage, manures, food-processing wastes, wood ash, etc.

Clearly you have good knowledge of this area, and I appreciate the post.

[Grandmotherbear]

My dad, who worked for the FDA, made regular trips to the sludge yard at the sewage plant fr free fertilizer.
I'm w/Cabin Fever on thiss one.

[Navotifarm]

Cabin Fever, thank you VERY much for your clear and lucid post. I don't understand about the "soil injection". How can one inject a solid into a solid? From what I remember of the local discussion, the company is supposed to spread the "biosolids" before it rains and one of the big complaints was that they didn't do this. Around here I bet if they spread it and it started raining in the process, their truck would be stuck in the mud before they finished plus weather reports are very inaccurate in my area.
Another thing that worries me a lot is "pathogens." You say they are handled but not HOW. My other question about salmonella wasn't responded to (except in the media-bashing thread which triggered my salmonella question). So is salmonella a pathogen? If so, how is it destroyed in the biosolid processing system. From what someone else mentioned, I'm guessing heat?
I did google sludge last night and there are some serious points raised (you mentioned citrus growers and the anti folks spoke to that). I have a marrow-deep antipathy to sludge because my neighbor who poisoned my dog spreads it so emotionally anything he does is bad and wrong. I am trying to handle this intellectually but his property adjoins mine along a creek so I am concerned about what is going into the creek. He has beef cattle. What is going into the meat I buy in plastic in the store?
You gave a really complete response enhanced by others on here but I still, if it's okay with you, feel very dubious about the "pathogens." Thanks.

[Cabin Fever]

When I referred to "injection," I was was implying the process where a liquid byproduct is "knifed" into the soil. And "Yes", salmonella is a common pathogen present in human waste and animal manures.

In biosolids, pathogens can be destroyed via a number of processes. The process chosen is up to the facility producing the biosolids. The more common processes include anaerobic digestion, anaerobic digestion, heat drying, and composting. Almost all pathogen reduction processes involve time and temperature (heat) with the exception of alkaline stabilization which involves extremely high pH.

Don’t worry, you are not different than most people. Most people have a “human waste” phobia. Personally, I don’t like changing diapers.

If you’d like to learn more factual information on biosolids recycling, I’d recommend visiting any of the following websites:

http://www.wef.org/biosolids/

http://www.biosolids.state.va.us/

http://www.nebiosolids.org/

http://www.mabiosolids.org/

http://water.epa.gov/polwaste/wastew...lids/index.cfm

[foxtrapper]

I suspect there is some confusion on the sludge. As cabin fever describes, it is very tightly regulated and does not create problems, when done correctly. And with sludge, it almost always is done correctly.

But then there is manure. Particularly dairy manure. That gets splashed and sprayed all over fields. Creates a heck of mess and stench. It is not subject to the same regulatory oversight that human sludge is subject to, and it shows. Not that it is inherently given a free ride, but it is given a far more lax ride than human sludge is given.

The stench and flies and such the OP mentioned I suspect came from manure application. That should not be the case with sludge application.

[palani]

I believe I would be more concerned with all the prescription medications that make it into the sludge and from the sludge into the soil and from the soil into the ground water. I recall hearing several years ago how fish in Texas tested positive for Prozac.

One time we had the septic cleaned out and the truck spread it on a couple of acres of alfalfa. Next years crop was weeds.

[Harry Chickpea]

While I have to bow to Cabin Fever's extensive knowledge, I too have concerns, especially with medications and estrogen like compounds, which might be concentrated in sludge.

The realities of sludge spreading are a bit different than the glowing reports. "Injection" is not a great answer in soils with clay, and the raw fact is that a rain or any additional moisture can create a huge stink, and runoff can also be a problem. What really frosted me though is that the "required" testing is not a foolproof indicator of contents. IF those tests were random and double blind - along with some obviously contaminated samples, and IF the testing was by a totally independent agency NOT funded in any way by people involved in waste stream management, I'd be a lot more comfortable.

We had a situation in N. Alabama where sludge from the NYC area was being imported by train and truck, and spread as a soil amendment. IIRC, tests were done and the results were NOT as advertised. It took the state agriculture commissioner getting involved to stop the importation.

Because of all these issues, my conservative take on it is that spreading of sludge is fine, PROVIDED that it is 1. Within the same state as the source, to prevent a foisting off of problem material, and 2. That it be on the same watershed as where the city gets its water. In other words, the incentive to keep it clean is multiplied.

[Forerunner]

I like your stipulation preference, Harry.

I'm all for, "if you create it-you recycle/reuse it".

Personally, I'm also for making the best use of whatever someone else throws away, as well. I wonder what the long term ag benefit might be if sludge WAS imported, properly composted with local waste carbons, etc. and applied..... the tab picked up by the producer.

What was Alabama's incentive to accept waste from NY to begin with ?

[Cabin Fever]

Originally Posted by Harry Chickpea

While I have to bow to Cabin Fever's extensive knowledge, I too have concerns, especially with medications and estrogen like compounds, which might be concentrated in sludge.

As I said in my original post, the best environment for the decomposition of these compounds is in the soil. We certainly don't want these to be discharged to the waterway where the water becomes the drining source ffor the next commmunity downstream. One most understand that even those these compounds can be detected in biosolids....usually at parts per billion to parts per trillion range....doesn't automatically mean that there is a problem. The words of my old chemistry prof still ring in my ears, "The dose makes the poison." In other words, all substances have the potential to be toxic if consumed at the right dose....or conversely, no substance is toxic if consumed at a low enough dose. With todays modern analytical precision, almost any sustance can be detected in bottled water, biosolids or mother's milk.

Originally Posted by Harry Chickpea

The realities of sludge spreading are a bit different than the glowing reports. "Injection" is not a great answer in soils with clay, and the raw fact is that a rain or any additional moisture can create a huge stink, and runoff can also be a problem.

As with any organic amendment or manure applied to land.

Originally Posted by Harry Chickpea

What really frosted me though is that the "required" testing is not a foolproof indicator of contents. IF those tests were random and double blind - along with some obviously contaminated samples, and IF the testing was by a totally independent agency NOT funded in any way by people involved in waste stream management, I'd be a lot more comfortable..

The vast majority of biosolids monitoring is conducted by city personnel who have nothing to gain by fudging the sample results.

Originally Posted by Harry Chickpea

Because of all these issues, my conservative take on it is that spreading of sludge is fine, PROVIDED that it is 1. Within the same state as the source, to prevent a foisting off of problem material, and 2. That it be on the same watershed as where the city gets its water. In other words, the incentive to keep it clean is multiplied.

The taxpayers in Milwaukee would be mighty upset with this idea. They've been bagging thier sludge and selling it to golf courses and homewowners around the USA for more than 70 years. I bettcha you could go down to the local garden center or nursery right now and buy a bag of Milwaukee sludge....look for brand name "Milorganite."

[Navotifarm]

The more I look into this, the more it hurts my head. As to why Alabama and some counties got into this, it was MONEY. There's big bucks in this for the trucker spreader dispoal guys. What's been raised here is another point which is spreading of animal manure. Here in Virginia there are enormous chicken and turkey-raising facilities on an all-in all-out basis. When the birds are taken away for slaughtered, the bedding is removed and replaced also. I always thought that this manure, mixed with peanut shells or wood shavings and presumably not having photographic (very toxic silver nitrate etc) chemicals, estrogens or prozac or other medications would be a GOOD thing but now I'm reading here (my only source on this) about piles of chicken manure from the caged egg layers that is apparently admixed only with itself and salmonella. No bedding! The "uncaged birds?" Uh oh, now I remember the high death rate of turkeys and chickens whose legs collapse because they can't stand their own weight. I was talking over the corpses of eight of them with a nice Mennonite guy who was so used to them he didn't even notice the flies and maggots. When questioned, his concern was adding it to the paper loss report. It was more trouble to tally them than to dispose of them. Uh. And they stunk! I couldn't help but wonder how many dead trampled on chewed on corpses were lying in the bedding on the floor that just composted on the spot.
I was struck by the ad I mentioned because it said "new," but how new could it be with all that acreage and 54 sites? What struck me most was the phrase "pollution abatement". If they are adding something that's not abatement. As a court reporter I had to record and type this kind of gobblede----. Trying to resolve words like "salvage" which means one thing in one english language and the opposite in govermentese fried my brains then and it's worse now because I'm not being paid to subvert meanings. Not to mention my dismay that "regulation" didn't prevent me from getting sick last winter within hours of a restaurant meal. I had a "visceral reaction" to something but I didn't report it to anybody. So besides all the reported sicknesses tracked down to eggs, spinach, peanut butter, there's another huge domain of questions that were never articulated. Like what are these factory farmers doing when the inspector is NOT there (well, substitute sludge spreaders for the factory farmer) to observe the transgressions?
Yeah, I apologize I'm not as lucid on the soil science here, from which I know from nothing but there is a common denominator between sl oops biosolids and animal manures where it is GOOD to recycle and then there's the uh oh phew factors. And now I'm old and feeble and have learned salmonella is a croakeria factor for old fogies, how do I know where it is IF it is, say, in biosolids? And how do I keep it out of my biosystem?

[geo in mi]

With all due respect to those who have replied previously, and with great credentials, here's just a reminder for those thinking about using the word "organic" in their sales or advertising: http://law.justia.com/us/cfr/title07...1.2.344.6.html

You can use the word, "natural", "free-range", "healthy", "EPA approved", "hazardless", "harmless", "biosolid composted", "chemical-free" or whatever you choose, except ORGANIC.


Just a thought.

geo

[Harry Chickpea]

"The taxpayers in Milwaukee would be mighty upset with this idea. They've been bagging thier sludge and selling it to golf courses and homewowners around the USA for more than 70 years. I bettcha you could go down to the local garden center or nursery right now and buy a bag of Milwaukee sludge....look for brand name "Milorganite." "

I'm aware of that. I also traveled through Milwaukee a couple of times in the 1950s and 1960s. I'll just say that I wasn't impressed with the idea of putting sludge from that not-so-fair city on my garden. YMMV. My caveats stand. If a city can't sell it locally, it needs to make it desirable enough that it can sell it. Just don't ship it to North Alabama and claim it don't stink. We be smarter than that.