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08/27/10, 11:23 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: WI
Posts: 119
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adverse possession fence line
Has Anyone dealt with property fence line and adverse possession, esp in WI? I am dealing with this right now, and it seems very confusing..... When i purchased my 20acers, the seller had a survey done- however NONE of the fence lines matched any of the markers, The attrney stated that we can not (or did we want to) move any of the fence lines... that we purchased that land according to the description in the title, deed... that was 7 years ago, now one of neighbors move the fence to match the survey marker- and cut off a season spring that we were using....  ugg Any other thoughts - other then getting an attorney right away - which we did!
LAV,
in WI
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08/27/10, 11:30 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: IL, right smack dab in the middle
Posts: 6,787
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LOL pay the lawyers enough and you can get it to come out anyway ya like.
Two things stand out to me.
That fence has been there a while apparently it was old 7 years ago when you bought the place perhaps its too old for him to move? that's a "adverse possession" question
Second Here in IL if your using the water from a spring for a certain time you have a continued right to that , I believe that's a "Prescriptive easement" question in either case ask the BEST LAWYER YOU CAN AFFORD.
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08/27/10, 11:38 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,206
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You can do a Google search on "adverse possession Wisconsin" and bring up a lot of sites which pertain. After which, you might want to hire a Wisconsin lawyer.
geo
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08/27/10, 12:25 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olsonla
Has Anyone dealt with property fence line and adverse possession, esp in WI? I am dealing with this right now, and it seems very confusing..... When i purchased my 20acers, the seller had a survey done- however NONE of the fence lines matched any of the markers, The attrney stated that we can not (or did we want to) move any of the fence lines... that we purchased that land according to the description in the title, deed... that was 7 years ago, now one of neighbors move the fence to match the survey marker- and cut off a season spring that we were using.... ugg Any other thoughts - other then getting an attorney right away - which we did!
LAV,
in WI |
So how much money did you pay your lawyer for that incorrect answer?
Adverse possession laws vary considerably from state to state. Lawyers opinions vary from person to person and from time to time. Generally speaking the survey will take favor over the fence line.
Adeverse possession situations do not become "Adverse" until there is an objection by one of the involved parties. So that sounds like now. Do you need a lawyer? Most likely. But you need one that is able to practice law, not one who just likes to avoid conflicts.
Sounds like if you agree with the survey that you will lose ground. If you do not object then the courts will consider the survey to be correct. I would object right away. 
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08/27/10, 12:46 PM
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Brenda Groth
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 7,817
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do you have the original legal statement in writing that none of the fences were to be moved? if so..send copy to them and to the county clerk
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08/27/10, 03:47 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Illinois
Posts: 8,264
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What about the person who's been paying taxes on that land?
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Moms don't look at things like normal people.
-----DD
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08/27/10, 06:53 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Piedmont Central Virginia
Posts: 641
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Speaking from experience and a lot of research, I can tell you, you have a SERIOUS problem. For starters, the guy just moved the fence without talking to you. that's a declaration of war! Under Virginia law, you are a guinea pig in his experiment to see what you will do. Silence is assent. You had seven years of using the spring without anybody saying, starting with that neighbor, anything, or due notice or asking YOU to move the fencing.
As to what to do, first you might give serious thought to knocking the fence down. that's called "vigorously defending your rights." Second, you might file a malpractice suit against the lawyer who gave you bad counsel. That's always good. Lawyers have lots of money.
ha ha you are probably a nice gentle soul in which case you are about to get steam rollered.
The first thing I would do is go research all the court records myself. Read every word of the deeds, don't just look at the transactions in the index. Does the survey differ from the metes and bounds description and does said survey not indicate the difference nor explain it? Go talk with the surveyor. They supposedly make their surveys based on court records, but tread softly. As paul Wheaton has found out, when somebody is in the wrong and is challenged, he most likely will be mad and mean and be very hostile. If he's in the wrong and you stir him up, you're shooting yourself in the foot..
There is a very good chance he was correct with the pins. uh oh you're a goner.
Spend a day looking at cases like this filed in the circuit court and see what happened to them. Be sure to see which lawyers won and which lost. Don't just go stumbling over the threshold of some lawyer, find you a good one who has handled these kind of cases and won.
My instinct says if your neighbor was honest and in the right, he would have contacted you face to face instead of building the assaultive fence. it's apparently not just a small piece of land but the water source that's the real issue. Lawyers will be laughing all the way to the bank!!!
And don't delay. When you snooze, you lose. yeah and GOOD LUCK!
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08/27/10, 08:58 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Carthage, Texas
Posts: 12,261
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Unfortunately (if you were possessing somebody else's land) the boundary line is the final arbiter. You had several years use of someone else's property for free.
I had the exact same discussion with my attorney, who only talks, and my surveyor, who only actually works on the ground and files the legal survey descriptions. Surveyor says adverse possession is an old lawyer's myth... that sometimes work in cities, but rarely out in the country... what's to stop the offended party from completely removing a fence? Then, the fence has to go exactly on the line. Most old-timers around here actually build the fence six inches inside the line... so the fence belongs completely to them... that way the neighbor can't put up gaps or gates, without your permission.
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Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Seneca
Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival. W. Edwards Deming
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08/27/10, 09:19 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Eastern North Carolina
Posts: 34,237
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Quote:
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Surveyor says adverse possession is an old lawyer's myth
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Yep
It's a nice theory, but it rarely overides a true property line from a deed or survey.
And no matter what anyone tells you, the ONLY answers that matter are those from an attorney you hire in YOUR state
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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
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08/27/10, 09:26 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm
the ONLY answers that matter are those from an attorney you hire in YOUR state
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If you put your faith in an attorney then he has a fool for a client.
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08/27/10, 09:29 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Eastern North Carolina
Posts: 34,237
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Quote:
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If you put your faith in an attorney then he has a fool for a client.
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You're an even bigger fool if you listen to pretend wannbe lawyers on the internet.
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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
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08/27/10, 09:38 PM
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Miniature Horse lover
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: West Central WI.
Posts: 21,251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm
You're an even bigger fool if you listen to pretend wannbe lawyers on the internet.
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True that is why it takes plenty of schooling to become a lawyer, not just clicking around the internet to find things that you may think is in your favor, or trying to find others that have had the same problem, the thing is Every State is different, Every County is different and no one can answer your questions other then a lawyer from your area.
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08/27/10, 09:56 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 3,259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olsonla
When i purchased my 20acers, the seller had a survey done- however NONE of the fence lines matched any of the markers,
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But the markers matched the property description on the deed?
Quote:
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The attrney stated that we can not (or did we want to) move any of the fence lines...
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Was this, by chance, because those fence lines ended up being OUTSIDE your property. IOW, you did not and do not own them?
Seems to me just because you can't move a fence line that has been legally shown to not belong to you doesn't mean you automatically have rights to the land inside that fence.
Quote:
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that we purchased that land according to the description in the title, deed...
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Case in point. The deed would match the survey, not the fence lines. You bought the property by the deed, not by the fence lines.
Quote:
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that was 7 years ago, now one of neighbors move the fence to match the survey marker- and cut off a season spring that we were using.... ugg Any other thoughts - other then getting an attorney right away - which we did!
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My thoughts are: why in the world did you think you had continued rights to a spring that was not on your land just because some yahoo put the fence in the wrong place long ago? Especially even after it'd been explained to you that you bought the land based on the deed, not the erroneous fence line. 
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08/27/10, 11:27 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 12,448
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Before buying any property be sure to look at the survey. Any problems with the boundary line should be taken care of by the owner before selling. If there is ny question it is better to look for another place.
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08/27/10, 11:33 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SE Georgia
Posts: 1,442
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If you look back far enough, you just might find out that your's and theirs was at one time part of a larger parcel and was broken up. The fence might have originally been simply pasture or field fence on the farm.
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08/28/10, 02:39 AM
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Master Of My Domain
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 7,220
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adverse possession is no myth. it is very real. it gets real very fast when it all comes to the court room. i just had 2 years of "education" on the subject first hand. in PA the possession must be open, notorious, hostile, one or two more terms i cannot remember at the moment and carried out for a period of 21 years. this means that here a person must act as if they own it openly and without the owner of record's permission for a period of 21 years and they can ask for ejection from the property and gain title to the land.
my mom successfully defended herself when a neighbor of a property mom bought from her dad, her homeplace, mowed the grass on the back lot and filed suit to take the land. mom bought the place in 1991 shortly before pappy died. pappy allowed the neighbors to mow what was once a field so that the neighbors felt more comfortable since it was right in front of their house. mom bought the property and was cajoled into letting the neighbor mow it for her. she had mowed it once or twice and used it for leisure on occasion...even burned her trash there. she latter moved and rented the place out. time went on and in 2008 the lawsuit was brought against her. the neighbors claimed they had taken care of the property since 1976...a date they choose because they had a receipt for a riding mower...and the seller of said lawnmower to testify. so, the period of 21 years spanned the ownership of 2 different people. pappy was not alive to testify that he had paid half of the cost of the lawnmower (in cash to the neighbors and without receipt), given gas money to the neighbors for mowing and compensation for the labor itself...also without receipt. none of our family had any pictures of us using the land...which we did on occasion for things like relic hunting, berry picking or leisurely walks while visiting mom and pappy from the 1970's until 2008. we even walked the boundry looking for the pins when the neighbor drove by...and she said nothing. mom won by the skin of her teeth basically because the neighbor shot herself in the foot by admitting she had permissive use of the land as she was "helping" the old, toddery and feeble man to mow his grass.
so my advice to anyone who owns property is to mark the boundaries with fences or hedges, take lots of pictures of everything...holding a shovel, having a picnic etc., hire someone to do something there and keep the records and have lots of witnesses that you actually use the land. let no one do anything for you without written permission or payment and keep the records.
adverse possession is very real and mom just paid $4500 to keep the land she already owned and paid taxes on.
this could be really messy for someone who just bought property from someone who may die soon and not be able to testify. someone could buy property and another could simply claim they took care of it for the required period of time as there may be no other evidence to the contrary. tax payment records alone don't seem to cut it.
__________________
this message has probably been edited to correct typos, spelling errors and to improve grammar... 
"All that is gold does not glitter..."
Last edited by MELOC; 08/28/10 at 02:42 AM.
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08/28/10, 06:29 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: SE Oklahoma
Posts: 2,005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olsonla
the seller had a survey done-
LAV,
in WI
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IMO, that is what did you in. The survey established the true and correct property line.
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08/28/10, 06:32 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm
You're an even bigger fool if you listen to pretend wannbe lawyers on the internet.
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Actually I find that reading others unbiased posts to be helpful. On the other hand biased posts are also helpful (in another way).
Last edited by palani; 08/28/10 at 07:40 AM.
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08/28/10, 07:35 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Piedmont Central Virginia
Posts: 641
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If you look up adverse possession the keys are, besides "hostile and notorious," having "color of title" (meaning a deed recorded) and paying taxes. Different states have different time periods. In Virginia (last time I looked) it was 15 years for land and 20 years for a road. Laws involve "continuous and uninterrupted" also so it would be interesting for OP to establish WHEN the fence was built and if his predecessor in title had used the spring and for how long. Surveyors make mistakes. Title searchers are lazy and don't read the words in the deed, merely check the index. People are granted easements by use when they neither have color of title nor pay taxes. Or had their easements taken away by others putting up chains or gates or threatening them with a gun or relentlessly harassing and tormenting them. This particular subject happens to be the one I am most deeply interested in because it's happened to me - people trying to take my land away by forcefully seizing my access. It's a life changing event to have a drunken transvestite threaten you with a loaded shotgun.
One of my neighbors took a road away from me and two other property owners by throwing up a dam across a creek and flooding the road. I have searched court records till I'm cross-eyed and cannot find any law cases on this particular situation. He did this when the other landowners didn't visit their property so they don't even know. I would not have known had I not been reading all the deeds for years back. Right now he has put up gates and fences on another neighbor's land. OP here, by using the spring and the fenceline has a right under adverse possession to that piece of land although if he didn't know what he was doing, it wasn't hostile - exactly - but it was sort of notorious since it could be plainly seen.
There was a case in Orange County quite similar where a fenceline was on a vineyard property and the adjoining neighbor sued to claim the land. Case went all the way to the VA Supreme Court and back. The guy with the fence won even though he didn't need the land and wasn't using it and the vinyard guy had the title, paid the taxes, and was the more productive land owner. It cost both sides more for lawyers than the land was worth.
Pancho is correct. This matter should have been settled BEFORE closing but it wasn't, so deal with it now, "vigorously!"
(And hooray, my blackberry didn't do the error 400 on this thread. Yaaaay!)
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