Starting trees on land?

[jcatblum]

Just purchased 20 acres, not sure when we will build on the land. Somewhere between 3-10 yrs from now. (DH is military, and it will depend on if he is reassigned after his next school).

As like most others I want an assortment of fruit and nut trees. I am worried about new seedlings needing regular care. There is a good size part of the land that stays pretty wet (I was told every time they bale the hay the tractor always gets stuck, and there are lots of ruts to prove it). I have not seen standing water there, but honestly in August in Oklahoma there isn't water anywhere!

I am pretty sure trees will thrive where it stays wet. I am worried about planting other places on the land. Has anyone had any success planting seedlings and not tending to them daily? Or would it be better to spend money on older trees?

[Old Vet]

Call the OK Forestry Commission and ask them. They will know and give you a fair chance of getting some trees that will grow without any care. They may not be what you want but any tree is better than nothing. The larger trees will not grow until the root developed. The best trees are the ones that are small enough to have most of the root left on them.

[Tricky Grama]

How far are you from your land? We have 20 also, an hr away. Get up there a lot when weather isnice but no way at 105!
Trans planted 42 cedars one rainly fall along the back...3 are left. Others have done well, tho.
If you need to tend to some & can't get there, you'll lose 'em I guess. I'd say worth getting a head start on fruit & nut if you knoow its going to be rainy.

[fishhead]

I would mulch them heavily and water them well when you plant.

[Michael Kawalek]

I agree that gettting trees in the ground should be your first prioritiy. But, here's one very important point to think about. Trees need MOIST soil. Trees do not like WET soil. The roots of the trees respire and need oxygen to survive, and there's very little oxygen in wet soil! If the water is not draining away in your wet season, trees might die where you plant them, from water logging.

At our California mountain homestead, we have very deep, but dry silty-loam soil. We can keep our trees alive with watering every two weeks in summer though rain doesn't fall between May and October.

You can compensate to get trees in the ground in any case. If you can mound up the soil (getting it up 6-12" above the surrounding ground, you'll be able to plant trees where they'd otherwise have "wet feet". You can also make depressions around the trees to hold irrigation water that you let soak in deep. You'll just have to figure out what works for your particular site.

[ronbre]

don't be so sure the trees wiill thrive in the wet areas..i have some areas here that have a high water table and a lot of trees do NOT thrive there, the roots will drown.

some trees like wet..most don't.

you will want to plant your fruit trees up on your higher ground..prefereably with a slope that goes off to the north or west if you have one but with any slope is best..esp where you have freezes.

you want the frost to drain away from the fruit trees, if you plant your trees down in the lower wet spots, they not only will be susceptible to frost but also to drowning.

there are some trees that LIKE or even LOVE wet..black spruce, cedar, aspen, alder, birch, red maple, elderberry, dogwoods, and a few others...save the rest for the higher ground

[Paul Wheaton]

Some trees like dry and some like wet.

I would plant trees seeds instead of seedlings. Way cheaper. Usually far more robust and will end up growing faster than a seedling.

[motdaugrnds]

Hello jcatblum,
I agree with Old Vet in that your Forestry Representative will know more about the types of trees that will have a better chance of surviving in your area.

I also agree with Michael in that getting your trees started now is a very good idea. Then when you start actually living on that acreage, you reap the results. You said you wanted an assortment of fruit and nut trees. Those will certainly present you with situations you need to prepare for "prior" to planting.

As others have posted already, some trees do not thrive in "wet" soils. They only need a good root soak every so many days and soil that drains well. (The willow tree, though not a fruit tree, would be a good tree to plant where water tends to stand as it will, also, help dry the land.) I suspect you have a "hard pan" not too far under the top soil; and if this is true, your fruit/nut trees that grow well the first few years will die when their roots hit that hard pan. (I have heard of entire orchards being wiped out for this very reason.) And you do not want to plant any fruit tree in a "low pocket" either as that area would be subject to freeze and you would lose the trees.

Our soil is sandy loam and our trees are planted on a well-drained fairly level knoll, we made sure there was a nice trench around the base of each tree & mulched each well with bedding from our barn, making sure the bedding was about 3" from the trunk of the tree to hold water and we "soak" each tree at least once a week. Before this year is out, I am going to embed a 1/2" hole utility wire 6" into the ground around each tree, letting it extend into the air about 6" to deter any moles; and I'm preparing a castor oil & water mixture to soak the area with to deter voles.

Your post stated you wanted to plant fruit & nut trees. Fruit trees do better 100+ feet away from regular forestry; and since you cannot watch your fruit/nut trees 24/7, the deer are probably going to kill many if not all of the fruit/nut trees you get started. I can tell you how I dealt with the deer problem here on our acreage. To keep the deer from damaging/destroying our "young" fruit/nut trees, I built two (yes 2) fences around each young tree. I used welded 2"x 4" wire and metal posts so it was not difficult at all. Both fences encircled "each" fruit tree. The first fence was 2' from the base of the tree I planted; and the 2nd fence was 2 1/2' from that first fence. (Deer will not jump into that type of an area and, even though they might stand on the exterior fencing, they still cannot reach the baby fruit tree. When the tree is larger and they can reach the limbs, they cannot reach enough to harm the tree.)

As for as ground where water stands, I trenched it here so the water would drain off into the creek without taking our soil with it. If the area you are talking about is sloped to any degree, you might consider trenching or creating a place dug out somewhere in it that would permit the water to drain to that one area and use that to water whatever you grow there.

Do let us know how things progress for you. Starting a homestead, even if one is not currently residing on it, is always an interesting read.

[Danaus29]

I'm a 5 minute walk away from my vacant property and still lost trees that were new or recently planted. I've lost new trees (and a blueberry bush this year) in my back yard. So wherever you do any planting you will lose some.

Paul Wheaton has the best idea, seeds. Seeds will do much better than even the best tending saplings. IME saplings will have a better chance of survival than large trees, and saplings have grown better for me than large trees. Another benefit is the smaller hole that has to be dug.

[silverbackMP]

Maybe start out with Pecans? Your climate is perfect for them and they like wet ground. Is this in a bottom? If so that would be perfetct.

If your not in a bottom and have drainage issues, then you may have a hardpan (especially it was row cropped in the past) which can be (somewhat) cured by a tactor and a subsoiler. Organic material in you soil will also help. If it is extremently wet you may need to tile.

Is this over in the Nations or closer to Fort Sill?

When I plant my chinese chestut trees (which is not on bottom ground) I plan on using copious amounts (ala Forerunner) of sawdust and chicken litter (and a few dead animals and/or bones if I can get my hand on them from a few custom butchers) compost spread evenly on the ground. The trees will have plenty of soil polymers (absorbs water and slowly releases it as the ground drys) in the soil around them and will be mulched with tree bark to promote fungi growth (a good thing). Sawdust and tree bark should be available at saw mills if you have any close. All trees will be heavily caged with two fence posts and chicken wire or heavier. Keep the mulch from touching the tree as this helps to keep mice and other critter tunneling to the tree and stripping the bark. Also all tree should be wrapped to prevent sun scald (you can use white latex paint as well but it is not as organic).

Trees from seeds are not good for fruit or nut production--they will NOT be true to the parent trees. However, you could plant a few grafted trees for branch stock and the latter grow from seeds and then field graft these.

[jcatblum]

I am only 40 min from the land, I am guessing we will visit the land once a month, depending on our schedules. The soil is VERY sandy. I honestly never knew what sandy soil was until I drove up the driveway at this property!

I did not realize fruit trees would want to be away from regular trees. There is a wooded area on the back of the property, so I will keep that in mind when planning my landscape.

I have been worring about deer and other visitors. I ran across a website a while back that listed deer resistant trees, I need to spend some more time reading up on that.

Also, the fence line, where the wet area is, has lots of trees, just not any that produce fruits or nuts. I was wanting to put pecan trees there. From everything I have read they can do well by creek beds. (There is a creek that runs next to the property, but it is dry right now)

I have been using miracle grow moisture control in my pots this yr & it has been great. Even @ 105 everyday I am only watering my pots 1 night a wk. I was thinking about digging a large hole and putting a good amount of the moisture control soil around where the trees are going to be planted. I figured it couldn't hurt to try!

I will work on contacting the OK Forestry in the up coming wks with hopes of planting in late Sept early Oct.

Oh & yes the land is 30 minutes from Key Gate @ Ft Sill.

Thanks for all the helpful info!

[silverbackMP]

Originally Posted by jcatblum

I am only 40 min from the land, I am guessing we will visit the land once a month, depending on our schedules. The soil is VERY sandy. I honestly never knew what sandy soil was until I drove up the driveway at this property!

I did not realize fruit trees would want to be away from regular trees. There is a wooded area on the back of the property, so I will keep that in mind when planning my landscape.

I have been worring about deer and other visitors. I ran across a website a while back that listed deer resistant trees, I need to spend some more time reading up on that.

Also, the fence line, where the wet area is, has lots of trees, just not any that produce fruits or nuts. I was wanting to put pecan trees there. From everything I have read they can do well by creek beds. (There is a creek that runs next to the property, but it is dry right now)

I have been using miracle grow moisture control in my pots this yr & it has been great. Even @ 105 everyday I am only watering my pots 1 night a wk. I was thinking about digging a large hole and putting a good amount of the moisture control soil around where the trees are going to be planted. I figured it couldn't hurt to try!

I will work on contacting the OK Forestry in the up coming wks with hopes of planting in late Sept early Oct.

Oh & yes the land is 30 minutes from Key Gate @ Ft Sill.

Thanks for all the helpful info!

Sandy? That is strange that it is so wet--usually that should drain pretty quickly.

Yes, Pecans like wetter soil then most other trees; however you should make sure you don't have a hardpan or a ledge of rock running underneath. Pecans have a long tap root and like deep soil.

I would try to amend the soil as much as possible; rather than spending lots of money on the miracle grow soil, I would use the combo of bulk poly crystals (probably the same thing that is in the moisture control stuff--just alot cheaper), compost, and mulch. I would not fertilize immediately after planting (water is good though if the ground is dry).

You can start out with commercial ferts if you want (I wouldn't but it is a course of action) but I would not use the miracle grow--go to a farm supply and get bulk pricing. I would suggest a soil test (several of these from different spot) to see what you need.

After you have the soil somewhat corrected, I would recommend weaning yourself off of chemical fertilizers. For trees, you want to promote soil organisms and fungi growth. For grassy areas you want to promote soil organsisms and bacterial growth.

Most plants form sybiotic relationships with various forms of bacteria and/or fungi and chemical ferts kill off the soil food web.

[motdaugrnds]

Oh I just remembered reading somewhere that Willow Trees were great at breaking up a hardpan. I think if I had to deal with your wet situation, I would plant a few (maybe outlining some area so as to use as a windbreak) just for the purpose of breaking up any hardpan there may be.

Also, I have the same question as Silverback. Sandy land? That type of soil does "not" hold water unless there is a bed under it that is not draining. (It also needs more fertilizer than other types of soil.) Oh and be sure and test your soil to see what the Ph factor is where you want your trees.

[Maura]

Check out the trees in and around your 20 acres. What kind of trees are growing where? Once you figure that out, look up what these particular trees like. Now you know what trees will do well in that area, the trees that need the same things as the trees already growing there.

A tree will not grow any larger than its roots. So, until the roots have been able to grow to the edge of the green above, the green above will not grow. The bigger the tree, the longer it will take until it starts growing again. But, at least you have a tree. I'd get trees 3 to 5 feet tall, taller if you can get a good amount of root. Taller than the grass, but able to recuperate quickly. You will have to water, especially the first year.

[Old Vet]

What kind of pecans do you want? The wild native pecans can be bought by the hundreds from the OK Forestry Commission. They are bare root and cost about $40 per hundred. You can also buy Black Walnuts from them also for about the same price. The reason I know about this I used to work for the Arkansas Forestry Commission and know many folks from OK. When you go to buy other fruit or nut trees you will have to find a commercial nursery and will pay much more for them but the smaller the trees the better because you will not shock them as much. The best time to plaint trees is from December to March in your area.

[HilltopDaisy]

My initial thoughts......

If you *ever* plan to have goats, make sure the fruit trees are fenced like Fort Knox. You will need a double fence, including woven wire, and electric, at least 10' tall. I'm pretty sure the goats will get through no matter what you do. (sigh.....)

[Spinner]

Here's what I would do:

Plant the largest size trees you can afford to buy. It might be better to buy larger trees, but less of them, and add a few each year.

When you plant a fruit tree, trim at least 1/3 of the new growth off. I know this is hard to do... you'll feel like your killing your tree, but in reality, you'll be giving it a much better chance to survive. It needs to expend it's energy in developing and establishing roots, not top growth. The trimming will accomplish that.

Mulch heavily. In addition to mulch, you can set 55 gallon barrels of water beside each tree. Put a small (very small) hole in the bottom of each barrel. Fill the barrel with water so it will slowly keep the roots damp, but not drenched (you don't want to drown the trees.)

You might want to put a collar around the trunk to keep ground animals from chewing the bark off and a fence circle to keep the deer, goats, etc. from feasting higher up.

[Old Vet]

Originally Posted by Spinner

Here's what I would do:

When you plant a fruit tree, trim at least 1/3 of the new growth off. I know this is hard to do... you'll feel like your killing your tree, but in reality, you'll be giving it a much better chance to survive. It needs to expend it's energy in developing and establishing roots, not top growth. The trimming will accomplish that.

Mulch heavily. In addition to mulch, you can set 55 gallon barrels of water beside each tree. Put a small (very small) hole in the bottom of each barrel. Fill the barrel with water so it will slowly keep the roots damp, but not drenched (you don't want to drown the trees.)

You might want to put a collar around the trunk to keep ground animals from chewing the bark off and a fence circle to keep the deer, goats, etc. from feasting higher up.

This is all good information when planting most any trees.

[Haven]

Our local nursery has auctions each year. I pick up 4-5 foot tall pines and 12-15 foot tall leaf trees. These are 100+ dollar nursery quality trees I buy for 35 dollars at the auctions and come home with a whole truck load.

We plant only willows on our low areas. Tree guards are a must if deer are in your area. I have deer come though and totally strip every inch of bark an an entire row of 15 foot trees that I didnt get wrapped in time. They sweep in like a pack of ninjas in the night and will decimate every tree in site when you least expect it..

Willows will bounce back on their own with new shoots if deer get to them. On the regular trees, I use black plastic hardware mesh, wrap it in a loose tube shape around the trees and fasten the ends with little clamps.

[Haven]

Originally Posted by Spinner

Here's what I would do:

Plant the largest size trees you can afford to buy. It might be better to buy larger trees, but less of them, and add a few each year.
.

I agree. I wasted more money on buying cheap small trees to save $. They are more delicate and you have lots of loss due to deer and animals. By the time you buy more trees to replace the ones you lose....

I have only lost 1 large tree that i planted and it was my own fault. I planted it in a low spot where water settled and drowned it out.