To trench or not to trench, that is the question

[Sparticle]

We have about 600 feet of PEX line from our water source to the RV. We pump only when our tank at the RV gets low. The pipe is laying in the sun and getting ruined and we've been told we need to trench to 2' anyway because of freezing.

HOWEVER, I'm sick of digging trenches here on the hill. The soil is very good the first few inches, then you get to rock. Our single biggest delay in building the house is ROCKS and huge ones, ones you can't go around and that are boulder size. This is the "good" hill too. A few hundred of those 600 feet are on the rocky part of the hill where even the surface of the ground is rock so I doubt we'd be able to get down far anyway.

It just seems ridiculous to try to trench through this. We have tons of dirt from the excavation and my idea was to cover the pipe with dirt to get it out of the sun and not worry about frost. It seems like we could just pump when we need water, running water won't freeze and it only takes a few minutes. Then let the pipe drain the water out and it won't freeze. Any other ideas? Mine seems to simple to work, what am I not thinking of?

[ronbre]

we have pex from our furnace to our house and to our son's house (120feet away) and it is all buried..

it transfers HEAT so it has to be buried to conserve the heat.

we put our greenhouse over where the pex is buried..just moved it last week..and the reason being was that the soil never froze where the pex is buried..so we figured that it puts off enough heat all winter to heat the soil of our greenhouse..an experiment and we'll see how it goes..

i'd bury it

[palani]

Solutions from the past

[Alice In TX/MO]

From your sig line:

Even if you do learn to speak correct English, whom are you going to speak it to? ~Clarence Darrow

Obviously not Clarence.

Even if you do learn to speak English correctly, to whom are you going to speak?

[palani]

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

From your sig line:

Even if you do learn to speak correct English, whom are you going to speak it to? ~Clarence Darrow

Obviously not Clarence.

Even if you do learn to speak English correctly, to whom are you going to speak?

A Darrow solution to a paradox perhaps? Why should one who professes perfection see the need in inject an imperfection? A lawyer trick of misdirection perhaps to pay attention to the message rather than the delivery?

[Harry Chickpea]

We have black poly that we do the same thing with. I've been having the same debate for three years - do I bury it below frostline, or just let it lie on the ground. HOWEVER... we have an 1100 gal cistern, so if it below freezing for a couple of weeks, no big deal. I doubt that you have enough storage capacity to easily make it between freezes. Also, black poly heats up in the sun, so any pockets of trapped ice have sun-warmed water working to thaw them. Pex might not heat the same way. You could get a 60 gal. sprayer tank and pump, and physically transport water during those times.

[agmantoo]

Sparticle

The RV is temporary housing I assume?
The source of water has power to the pump?

If the above is correct then buy a temperature controlled water valve and install it at the RV. When the temperature drops, the valve will open and the pump turns on. Wasting water is not all that expensive. Power consumption for a 3/4 hp pump running when the temps are near or below freezing should be considerably less than $20 /month. The valve will modulate as the water changes the function of the valve. I pump water to 5 households (rentals) and I pay the utility for the pump. The average cost per month is around $15 to $18 per month. The wife monitors the bill and informs me if it increases above that and I go check for the cause, usually a defective toilet. http://www.solarfreezeprotection.com/

[Beeman]

From what I know PEX will deteriorate from UV rays but it's also not for burying. Water supply should be HDPE which should be buried.

[Witterbound]

Depends on how long you're going to need the water line. For 6 months, I wouldn't worry about it, you'll have to deal with freezing this winter. There will likely be times when it won't drain property, and you'll have to scramble for water. Going to be a few years, then you need a more permanent solution, like digging a trench. I think heaping up dirt over the pipe will work too, just creates a walkabout problem, and isn't going to satisfy any inspector you've got to make happy.

[texican]

Disconnect the pex, and store it for other uses. Go with pvc, a lot cheaper, and the sun won't destroy it. At least I've had pvc pipe exposed to the sun for over 20 years, with zero degradation. It will surrender the ghost if it's driven over, alas.

Pumping water only when you need it is a good idea. In the winter time, I'd make sure there weren't any 'low spots', where water might pool, freeze, and crack the pipe.

Sounds like ya'll are blessed with rock. Wish I had such a source, it'd save having to drive 15 miles to the construction yard and buy a couple tons at a time. One's curse is another's blessing.

[Sparticle]

Going to try to answer all the questions with one post. We have a small tank at the RV, like 35 gallons that we store water in for our use. However, we have a 1,000 gallon cistern we will be putting the water in soon and the water will be in there in the winter.

There is no inspector so we can do what we want.

Really hate to get rid of the PEX because we've already spent the money and it's there. Buying and Laying another 600 feet of pipe when we are supposed to be building a house doesn't sound too appealing, but if it would keep us from having to bury/trench it - then it might be worth it.

There is power at the water source via solar panels and batteries. We couldn't use the temperature control valve because our water source is a small basin of water, if the pump ran and ran, it would run the basin dry. Right now we pump till the basin is empty, turn off the pump and when the basin fills again we turn the pump back on.

Wondering how we'd empty the pipe because we can't run the pump dry. I'm guessing just physically walking the length of the pipe, picking it up along the way? But if it's buried that wouldn't work - argh.

Why can't you bury PEX?

Re: mounding dirt over the pipe, I don't really care at this point if there is a long hill with the pipe under it. Grass will just grow on it and it runs along side the trail, so it would lay in an unmowed area anyway.

[fishhead]

It it's on a hill and you're only going to pump intermittently just lay down some black polypipe and as soon as you're done pumping let the water in the pipe drain back down the hill.

I've done that in MN at -20 F and it works as long as you don't have any low spots were it can pool.

Or like I did for at least 10 winters get some rubber couplers and glue together sections of PVC pipe as long as you can handle 50'-60' long. Lay it on top of the ground and join the sections with the couplers. As soon as you are done pumping break the pipe apart at the couplers and make sure the water drains out of each section. Lift it if necessary.

That's how I used to add water to my fish ponds every 3-4 weeks all winter for at least 10 winters. Even at -20 F I never had a problem although it wasn't much fun to be out there at 10 pm in the dark with wind howling disconnecting the pipe and making sure it was empty.

[Sparticle]

Originally Posted by fishhead

It it's on a hill and you're only going to pump intermittently just lay down some black polypipe and as soon as you're done pumping let the water in the pipe drain back down the hill.

I've done that in MN at -20 F and it works as long as you don't have any low spots were it can pool.

Or like I did for at least 10 winters get some rubber couplers and glue together sections of PVC pipe as long as you can handle 50'-60' long. Lay it on top of the ground and join the sections with the couplers. As soon as you are done pumping break the pipe apart at the couplers and make sure the water drains out of each section. Lift it if necessary.

That's how I used to add water to my fish ponds every 3-4 weeks all winter for at least 10 winters. Even at -20 F I never had a problem although it wasn't much fun to be out there at 10 pm in the dark with wind howling disconnecting the pipe and making sure it was empty.

Great idea about the sections! Currently when we aren't pumping the pipe stays full. It's slightly down hill, but there is so much flat ground it covers, the pipe doesn't drain. If we replaced the pipe with pipe that wouldn't degrade in the sun, used couplers to empty the water out of the sections I think that would work. Would probably be easier than trying to trench through rock too. Keep the ideas coming and thanks guys!!!!

[littlebitfarm]

If you aren't worried about it freezing why not pick up some 4" field tile (cheap) and run the pex lines through that. It will be out of the sun but will pick up summertime heat.

Kathie

[strawhouse]

If you are using a "push" pump to move the water an easy solution is to install a directional valve with an integral schrader valve at the RV. At the bottom of the line at the pump drill a small hole in the line after the pump (about 1/4" in size) (again this is where PVC is easier and a better choice). What happens is the pump turns on and moves the water up the pipe, it sends the water throught the directional valve and fills up the tank. Once filled,the pump turns off and the directional valve stops the tank from back flowing. The schrader valve (which is the same valve that is on your bicycle tire) then allows air into the line by the "pull" of the water draining back through the hole that was drilled in the line after the pump and completely draining the line protecting it from freezing.

[Sparticle]

Originally Posted by strawhouse

If you are using a "push" pump to move the water an easy solution is to install a directional valve with an integral schrader valve at the RV. At the bottom of the line at the pump drill a small hole in the line after the pump (about 1/4" in size) (again this is where PVC is easier and a better choice). What happens is the pump turns on and moves the water up the pipe, it sends the water throught the directional valve and fills up the tank. Once filled,the pump turns off and the directional valve stops the tank from back flowing. The schrader valve (which is the same valve that is on your bicycle tire) then allows air into the line by the "pull" of the water draining back through the hole that was drilled in the line after the pump and completely draining the line protecting it from freezing.

I don't quite understand this. I'll think about it some more and maybe it'll come to me, lots of new terms. Thanks for the input.

[Sparticle]

Originally Posted by littlebitfarm

If you aren't worried about it freezing why not pick up some 4" field tile (cheap) and run the pex lines through that. It will be out of the sun but will pick up summertime heat.

Kathie

Never heard of Field Tile. Looking on Google now, but haven't found what you are talking about yet; searching...

[strawhouse]

Sorry its hard to explain but it is a simple design, when I find a few links I will post them. As far as the field tile,
http://www.bigodrain.ca/advantages.php
Another name is "big O pipe"

[Sparticle]

Would this be the cheapest type you think, is this even "field tile"?

http://www.tractorsupply.com/home-im...50-ft--3152050

Is there a material cheaper? I can't find anything that looks like the first link provided - yet.

[littlebitfarm]

Originally Posted by Sparticle

Never heard of Field Tile. Looking on Google now, but haven't found what you are talking about yet; searching...

http://www.ruralking.com/tile-field-solid-4-x-250.html

Kathie