Any Exterminators here? Poison questions.

meanwhile · #1 08/10/10, 05:36 PM

We are having a new large porch/room added to the house. My youngest son has very severe allergies and we never use poisons around the house. The house is old, wood - but has never had termite treatments. We do not have bugs and the Contractor has looked and there are no termites and no signs of old termites.

The Contractor said that "code" requires us to spray for termites UNDER the new cement slab and he wants to use an Exterminator of his choice. I had told them Borax, plain old Borax was fine and safe to use and they, at first, told me they had Borax solution to use.

Today, however they gave me several stacks of paper to read and my choices are: Bor-Ram but I do not see anywhere in there that it is Borax? It says it is: disodium Octaborate tetrahydrate

Is that a form of Borax?

They also asked if they could use Termidor SC which is fipronil 5 amino and pyrazole

But that does not sound safe at all!

Any suggestions or information would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

deaconjim · #2 08/10/10, 06:03 PM

I don't know what your state requires, but there is an option in most states that eliminates the need for treating a slab with poison. Bait stations are placed around the perimeter of the house. These stations basically contain two pieces of pine wood. The termite company comes by on a regular schedule and checks the wood to see if termites have attacked it. If termites are detected, the wood is replaced with paper treated with a termiticide that is carried back to the colony which then dies. These bait stations were just coming on the market when I got out of the business, but they are now commonly used.

One important thing to know about termite treatments is that they are only as good as the gurantee that comes with it. There are two basic types:

1. Retreat - The company comes once a year to look for termites, and if they find any they will retreat at no cost to you. The problem with this is that the termite company has no incentive to find the termites when they come to inspect, and often times an unscrupulous company will skip the inspection if they can get away with it. It costs them the same amount to retreat regardless of how much damage the termites have done to your house, so they may ignore them as long as possible.

2. Repair - This means the termite company will retreat to kill the termites and pay for repairs for any damage done. This is more expensive, but unless you can and will do your own inspection, it is the best protection. The termite company basically purchases an insurance policy on your house which then pays for the repairs if termites are found. Naturally, this gives the termite company the incentive to do a better initial treatment, and to actually re-inspect as promised.

meanwhile · #3 08/10/10, 06:56 PM

Thank you - they did not mention bait stations yet. I have call in to another Exterminator to get a second opinion from this area. Thank you - I will ask about the bait stations.

halfpint · #4 08/10/10, 07:02 PM

Deacon Jim has given good advice, I believe that a 'termite bond' is the one that will repair your house if termites do damage, and a 'termite letter' only says that termites are not currently present and if they should appear will only be retreated.

The system we use is called Sentricon and you can read about it on their website: http://www.sentricon.com/us/index.htm Most of the codes have been changed to allow this type system, but you might live in an area that still requires it, so you might want to call your county or city to find out.

Dawn

Harry Chickpea · #5 08/10/10, 07:07 PM

It is a form of borax. It is the boron itself that is a problem for insects. The form is not terribly important. Borax, boric acid, whatever. "disodium Octaborate tetrahydrate"
two sodium molecules (think salt without the chlorine), eight boron molecules (think borax), tetrahydrate (think four water molecules). I'd be fine with that. When you get into chlorine compounds and organophosphates, that is a different story. Bravo for thinking like you do.

Danaus29 · #6 08/10/10, 07:13 PM

Here is some technical info on your product:
http://www.co.thurston.wa.us/health/...trahydrate.pdf

It's a boron compound.

PNP Katahdins · #7 08/10/10, 07:13 PM

Check with whoever writes the code they are referring to, state, city, etc. It should be online. There may be provisions for an exemption in cases like yours, or alternate treatment.

The contractor is trying to protect his company. You are trying to protect your son and family. You should be able to work this out. Good luck to you and keep us informed, okay?

Peg

deaconjim · #8 08/10/10, 07:29 PM

In the places I've worked, the only requirements for termite treatment came from the mortgage company. Construction standards do affect a building's exposure to termites, but the treatment is only required by the loan company. It could be that your contractor is just trying to send some business to his buddy in the termite business.

PNP Katahdins · #9 08/10/10, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deaconjim

It could be that your contractor is just trying to send some business to his buddy in the termite business.

I.e. the Buddy Code. I was wondering about that too, actually.

Peg

meanwhile · #10 08/10/10, 10:20 PM

Thank you everyone - I did not think to ask them to show me the Code requirements. There is no Bank/Mortgage involved so it would not be a mortgage thing. The Contractor told me that the "code" requires the cement slab be treated for termites. I don't want any poison on there or around here that would make my son sick! Regular ole Borax would be OK and they did tell me - at first - that they would use it but now they came back to say maybe not.

Good idea for me to ask to read the Code. I will do that too. I also have called another Exterminator to ask questions. He is my sister's in another City but she said he would answer questions for me too.

HarryChickpea - So? The Disodium Octaborate Tetrahydrate IS Borax? Maybe this form, the Bor-Ram is just much stronger than the plain ole Borax we can buy in the store for ants?

Thank you.

deaconjim · #11 08/10/10, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meanwhile

Thank you everyone - I did not think to ask them to show me the Code requirements. There is no Bank/Mortgage involved so it would not be a mortgage thing. The Contractor told me that the "code" requires the cement slab be treated for termites. I don't want any poison on there or around here that would make my son sick! Regular ole Borax would be OK and they did tell me - at first - that they would use it but now they came back to say maybe not.

Good idea for me to ask to read the Code. I will do that too. I also have called another Exterminator to ask questions. He is my sister's in another City but she said he would answer questions for me too.

HarryChickpea - So? The Disodium Octaborate Tetrahydrate IS Borax? Maybe this form, the Bor-Ram is just much stronger than the plain ole Borax we can buy in the store for ants?

Thank you.

Boric Acid is what you are thinking about. It is quite effective at killing bugs, but it is not a poison. Insects have an exterior skeleton (exoskeleton) that is covered in a waxy substance that helps them to retain moisture. Boric acid is a chrystiline substance that has sharp edges on the chrystals. These sharp edges tend to scrape off the wax when the insects crawl through it, and if they lose enough of the wax they will die of dehydration before they can regenerate the wax.

This is effective on some types of insects, but I don't see it working very well on termites, simply because of their habits. My suggestion would be to either use the bait stations (you can buy them at Lowe's if you want to do it yourself) or keep an eye out for signs of termites and treat them if you have a problem.

meanwhile · #12 08/11/10, 06:17 AM

Thank you - my problem is not the termites. So far we do not have any and there are no signs of old termites.

The problem is the Code & Contractor & Inspectors. Apparently they claim the new construction has to be sprayed / treated and I do not want the bad poisons out there.

I will check on the bait stations.

Caitedid · #13 08/11/10, 07:36 AM

DeaconJim-Thanks for finally explaining to me why Borax kills bugs. Been wondering half-heartedly about it for a while.

tomwendy · #14 08/11/10, 08:04 AM

FWIW I'm building a McDonalds here in Bakersfield Ca. And the city does by code require sub grade treatment for termites by a lic. exterminator and a written report of said application.
This is the only place that I have run into this in So. Cal.

Harry Chickpea · #15 08/11/10, 04:26 PM

DeaconJim, you may be mixing up D.E. and borax/boric acid. It is a fairly common mixup.

Boric acid is a (relatively mild) poison. Borax (aka laundry booster) is also a mild poison. Where D.E. will stop working when it gets wet, the boron compounds continue to work.

The various chemicals are NOT the same. Boric acid is the most common boron compound used for insect control. It is cheap, relatively non-toxic (even used to wash out newborn's eyes) and easy to apply safely. Borax works, but generally isn't the ultra-fine powder that can get in more cracks an crevices.

About using an insecticide under the slab: I had a neighbor in Florida who bought a house that was was built on the cheap. One of the things that was skipped in construction was the poisoning of the soil prior to laying the slab. You simply would not believe the continuing ant problem that he had. The ants built extensive nests under the house and came up through every tiny crack or poorly sealed pipe, came through the concrete block on top of the foundation, and constantly invaded the house.
He still lives there, but all he can do is control, and expect regular major outbreaks of ants in the kitchen and other areas. About the only way he could get a handle on it now would be to drill holes in the slab, on a two foot grid pattern, and pump force insecticide under the slab, then seal the holes before the next heavy rain.

The cost and effort involved in poisoning the ground under a house to insects is WELL worth it.

meanwhile · #16 08/11/10, 06:55 PM

After lots of calls today and visits from two Exterminators, the Contractor has agreed (and the Inspector) to use the Bait Stations. I am furious since it truly costs 8 times what the Boric Acid would have cost. There seems to be nothing else I can do but pay it and just move the construction along.

Thanks everyone for the information and tips.

Harry Chickpea · #17 08/11/10, 11:09 PM

Do the boric acid yourself. You won't regret it.

meanwhile · #18 08/12/10, 07:06 AM

Thank you Harry - my older son has already picked some up and we are going to treat under the cement pad before they do the pour. Thanks for the tips.

Paul Wheaton · #19 08/16/10, 11:53 AM

Harry is spot on.

The borates are toxic, but a mild toxin compared to the other stuff. Borates should never be used where people can be touching them regularly, but to be used in places where people will not be touching them can be, IMOO, a good practice.

Diatomaceous earth is awesome stuff for a lot of things (everybody on this forum should keep ten pounds or more of food grade diatomaceous earth on hand at all times), but for stuff inside the walls or buried, I think the borates are gonna be a better fit for a lot of different reasons.

meanwhile · #20 08/17/10, 02:28 PM

Thank you everyone - we did use the Boric Acid ourselves. The Contractor asked me to wait until after the Inspector left since he was afraid the Inspector would pitch a fit. We did have to put in those "bait station" things but they cut the price for us some after I explained my son's allergies. I do not plan to keep those things here since in my view they probably are calling out and attracting the termites.

In any case - Thank you everyone.