Barbed perimeter fence question

CrashTestRanch · #1 08/02/10, 01:05 PM

Hey all,

Fencing off approximately 42 + acres, we are in an Open Range/Fence Out state. Trying to get land ready to support cattle and other livestock.

Plan is to run DUAL fencing, 5 strand barbed perimeter and eFence inner paddocks.

Perimeter must hold out free range cattle plus pronghorn, we have several large herds of pronghorn that run thru one of our valleys, and these beast are brutal on fencing. Additional fencing ideas/help needed on how to deal with the coyotes and feral dog packs.

What gauge barbed should we be looking for? 12.5, 15.5, 18?

How many T-posts? From the looks of the board member posts here on HT, it seems that 10' spacing is what the majority would put in, with a wood/metal (sch40 pipe) post every 2nd or 3rd in spacing.

Doing the math:
Does this sound about right?
That would equal about 540 T-posts and around 150 wood/metal (sch40 pipe) posts. *edited MATH

Wolf mom · #2 08/02/10, 02:21 PM

Here in Navajo County, your bottom wire should not be barbed... so the elk won't hurt their itty bitty bodies as they crawl under...go figure!

No need to use anything besides T-posts. Miles & miles of T-posts... (not the corners or cowboy gates tho.) You can use 1 X 1/4(?) X however long, but not touching the ground, to help keep barbed wire tight between posts. Or use cedar branches, Or just check fence line.

I have 2 parcels each bordered on two sides by the national forest....

You'll have to use something like electric fencing, top & bottom, or field fencing to keep coyotes and other critters out.

Jalopy · #3 08/02/10, 02:32 PM

I concede to Wolf Mom she has experience in your area. In the midwest I would use the wood post for every 2-3 steel T post but then our cows will stand belly deep in grass and push their head and neck against the fence to reach a blade of grass outside the fence. Also we have more moisture possibly and the soil would move allowing the cattle the oppurtunity to push the posts into a 45 degree angle if you did not have the wood posts to add resistance. I think Wolf mom has the right idea for your area. JMHO. Although I would probably not put the posts on 10' centers I would stretch them out to 12'-14' center spacing.

TnAndy · #4 08/02/10, 02:54 PM

How tall do you plan to make it that will keep out pronghorn antelope ? I'd think they could clear anything up to 10' high.

CrashTestRanch · #5 08/02/10, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf mom

Here in Navajo County, your bottom wire should not be barbed... so the elk won't hurt their itty bitty bodies as they crawl under...go figure!

No need to use anything besides T-posts. Miles & miles of T-posts... (not the corners or cowboy gates tho.) You can use 1 X 1/4(?) X however long, but not touching the ground, to help keep barbed wire tight between posts. Or use cedar branches, Or just check fence line.

I have 2 parcels each bordered on two sides by the national forest....

You'll have to use something like electric fencing, top & bottom, or field fencing to keep coyotes and other critters out.

Hi Wolf mom,

We're on the Apache side of the White Mountains

As for the elk, only spotted one cow elk up near the highway, scared the @#$% outta us when it came out onto the road, around dusk, in front of my truck. And it WAS not itty bitty LOL

As for the pronghorn, they've messed up a section on the east and west sides of the south 40. And they move like lightning going UNDER the fence instead of over it.

The north 40 which is the one we need fenced now, is bordered on the north by state land, the other borders are POL.

I think our biggest concern is the coyotes and all the darn feral dog packs running around this area. The south 40 have a few out buildings, one was an old 3000 sq ft hippie house/shelter that we have found that either coyotes or dogs have used for shelter and possibly a few litters too.

With the eFence, we want about a 20' spacing between the inner and outer barbed wire. Enough to move livestock, equipment and such. Plus it adds another layer of security. We are going to run 5 strand eFence on the inner.

CrashTestRanch · #6 08/02/10, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TnAndy

How tall do you plan to make it that will keep out pronghorn antelope ? I'd think they could clear anything up to 10' high.

They have a tendency to go UNDER not over. Sat and watched the herds move and when spooked they go under the fence. Only spotted a few go over, but that was when they all crowded to get under.

CrashTestRanch · #7 08/02/10, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jalopy

Although I would probably not put the posts on 10' centers I would stretch them out to 12'-14' center spacing.

Yup, we've read a few papers on fencing, and most recommend 10-15' spacing, no more than 15'.

So every 3 t-posts plant a wood/steel post?

RJMAcres · #8 08/02/10, 05:26 PM

Barbed wire fence alone won't keep antelope, wild dogs or coyotes out of your fields
They go under, over and thru. I can help you eliminate the under and thru problem
real easy. Run 4 strands of barbed with an electric wire on top, on bottom and in
between every strand of barbed. Get the hottest fence charger you can get.
That will keep the wild dogs, etc from climbing over, going thru and going under.
May cost you a bit more to do it that way but it's well worth it.

agmantoo · #9 08/02/10, 05:32 PM

CrashTestRanch

I believe you need to recalculate the number of posts required!

CrashTestRanch · #10 08/02/10, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJMAcres

Barbed wire fence alone won't keep antelope, wild dogs or coyotes out of your fields.

They go under, over and thru. I can help you eliminate the under and thru problem real easy.

Run 4 strands of barbed with an electric wire on top, on bottom and in
between every strand of barbed.

Get the hottest fence charger you can get.

That will keep the wild dogs, etc from climbing over, going thru and going under.

May cost you a bit more to do it that way but it's well worth it.

Interesting setup. So 5 hots, 4 barbed = 9 wire setup, that's 9+ miles of wire. How tall would the posts have to be for that setup?

We are wanting barbed wire perimeter and eFence inner. Don't really want to run 2 chargers as the extra costs is not an option at this point, unless we can find one heck of a deal.

Will the setup you described really hold out the pronghorn and coyotes/dogs?

Do you have pics of a similar setup? (edit, found this link : BUILDING AN ELECTRIC ANTI-PREDATOR FENCE

CrashTestRanch · #11 08/02/10, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agmantoo

CrashTestRanch

I believe you need to recalculate the number of posts required!

Agreed, one too many zeros in those numbers, even with my 10% buffer added, the numbers looked odd after I typed them, so went back and recalculated the math.

CrashTestRanch · #12 08/02/10, 06:16 PM

Any ideas for getting across 2 washes?

One is approximately 10-12' across and deep. The other is 30'+ across and about 12' deep.

RJMAcres · #13 08/02/10, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrashTestRanch

Interesting setup. So 5 hots, 4 barbed = 9 wire setup, that's 9+ miles of wire. How tall would the posts have to be for that setup?

We are wanting barbed wire perimeter and eFence inner. Don't really want to run 2 chargers as the extra costs is not an option at this point, unless we can find one heck of a deal.

Will the setup you described really hold out the pronghorn and coyotes/dogs?

Do you have pics of a similar setup? (edit, found this link : BUILDING AN ELECTRIC ANTI-PREDATOR FENCE

Our t-posts have 50 inches sticking out of the ground and are 5 1/2 foot
total length.

Critters like pronghorns may still jump the fence.
Guess dogs and coyotes could jump it also but we've never had them do
so.

We're fenced like that as we have a bad problem with packs of wild dogs
here. Can't seem to shoot them all no matter how much I try.

If you email me tomorrow I'll take some pictures of our fence.
Randy@MeinerSolutions.com

Our setup is similer to the link above. Wish I would have seen that before.

Chargers aren't really that expensive. We use parmaks and we also have
a small solar charger that we use on a smaller pasture. It works well.

We also run 3 great pyreneese dogs with our goats.

Raising critters in areas with packs of wild dogs is not cheap. Those
dogs like to kill just to kill.

RJMAcres · #14 08/02/10, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrashTestRanch

Any ideas for getting across 2 washes?

One is approximately 10-12' across and deep. The other is 30'+ across and about 12' deep.

Have to be carefull fencing washes as when they fill with water and start
flowing fast it will take out the fencing and posts.

I can't remember what it's called at the moment but you hang fencing
below your regular fence so it moves with the water flow.

RJMAcres · #15 08/02/10, 07:38 PM

CrashTest - get a good .223 with a good scope and start taking out some of
the wild dogs. That problem will only get worse if they aren't eliminated or at
least thinned out. Snares are another good option.

I can discuss problems with wild dogs all day.

Wolf mom · #16 08/02/10, 11:25 PM

CTR: I still dont understand why you feel you have to put a steel or wood post every 3-4 T-posts when in this heavy clay soil, t-posts (made from STEEL) when driven in a foot, will NEVER move....maybe bend some, but not pop out. It's not like we are back east with beautiful loamy soil - this is hard stuff here!

Drive around the mountains - look at how people run wire. Those that have wood posts - like my neighbor, made them from cedar posts 40 years ago when it was easy to down trees from the forest (no permits). Those wood posts last forever here.

I'm not trying to argue with you, just save you some time & money.

As far as the washes go, you can run the fence down, across and back up. Or fence across with a floater log attached on the bottom. Ask around to see if you get flash floods &/or how often the washes flood. That may give you more of an idea of how to fencing across them.

CrashTestRanch · #17 08/02/10, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf mom

CTR: I still dont understand why you feel you have to put a steel or wood post every 3-4 T-posts when in this heavy clay soil, t-posts (made from STEEL) when driven in a foot, will NEVER move....maybe bend some, but not pop out. It's not like we are back east with beautiful loamy soil - this is hard pan!

Drive around the mountains - look at how people run wire. Those that have wood posts - like my neighbor, made them from cedar posts 40 years ago when it was easy to down trees from the forest (no permits). Those wood posts last forever here.

I'm not trying to argue with you, just save you some time & money.

didn't think you was arguing ... our soil out on the Apache side is sandy loam and we were thinking long term and the ROI on our $$$ ...

Do you have a possible connection for the wood posts? Some of the t-post run $6-15 per post.

tamsam · #18 08/03/10, 01:31 AM

How about 1 1/2 inch or 2 inch pipe for the every 3 or 4 etc. Or weld 2 t post together for more in ground. Good luck. Sam

fantasymaker · #19 08/03/10, 07:28 AM

No snow rain or weeds there? Thats the only way a electic fence MIGHT keep out dogs and cyotes.
Around here Id be thinking a woven wire fence with 2x4 openings in the bottom 4 feet and 4x4 in the top 4 feet.
Maybe a strand or two of barbed or electric wire on top and a outside electric wire a foot up from the bottom on standoffs...just for fun.

Wolf mom · #20 08/03/10, 09:25 AM

The cheapest thing would be to get a permit & cut your own. Something I absolutely hate, but...

There's also a sawmill in Eagar - 333-3055. Maybe you can buy their culls -or they can point you in a direction. Or check with people who advertise firewood for sale. I bet they'd do it. There's also a place just outside Snowflake going toward Holbrook that peels logs - don't know much about them as I don't get out that a' way much anymore.

Apache-Sitgreaves Nat'l Forest ranger station Springerville: 333-6200 for permits. Maybe they can also give you a direction to go in.

Was in the Lakeside station yesterday wanting a permit to dig wild iris. They don't allow any plants removed - $250.00 fine! I can buy lots of iris for that.

You really have your work cut out for you. & if you're going to run electric fencing close to the ground - do you have the time to constantly check it & find the problem considering the length of your run?

Just a thought in building your fence - what harm will the pronghorns do besides eat a little grass? Is it cost effective to try to fence them out?
The same with the wild dogs. Maybe the thing to do is find an alternative like keeping your pg. cows close to home when they're ready to calve. Yuppers, like was posted, - I'd SSS.

How's your water situation?