Getting My $10,000

[Navotifarm]

Some of the information on this board is exceptionally helpful. Since it arises in fragments, bits and pieces over a very diverse array of responses, I have been blocking and copying interesting tid bits into the notes section of my blackberry. Sometimes these are just kind of flashes that attract my attention at the time but do not link in my brain to a particular action because there is more information lacking than presented.

Now, I have a particular problem where a logger I had a verbal agreement with, who had called the job into the local forestry department, did not cut all the trees he was supposed to (clear cut pine) and DID cut and remove trees he was NOT supposed to. Our agreement was that I would. Derive $10,000 which I need to pay my delinquent land taxes, so I have a dire necessity here and am not in aa position to be a one-woman welfare agency for the loggers. They took my trees I do not know where and pocketed the sales proceeds.

When I called the forestry departmant where the job was filed, I was told "we are not involved with the commerce side." Interestingly, they don't even check to see how many of what kinds of trees were taken or measure off the acreage that was cut. You'd think they'd want to know for their statistics. The way the land around me is being cut, no foresters will be needed pretty soon. You'd think they worry about their jobs?!

Other foresters etc do they blame the victim act and chastize me for being an @zzwhole in not getting a contract. Well, actually, I had a one-sentence contract and a verbal contract but a man is as good as his word and this guy was baad!

Now, if you were I, and had the advantage of being a creative and competent strategist, what would you do or have you successfully done to get what was yours????

In a previous thread on this, Palani contributed something very helpful if only I could understand it. She said:

"HT Palani
You need to file a UCC1 form with the Secretary of State placing a landowners lien on anything that the land produces. Some local landowners do that routinely on renters (corn and soybean ground) so that the landowner is first in line for payment. Send a copy of the UCC form to each mill in the area and you will effectively shut down his operation ... no one will want to pay him when you might step in and lien them as well for what they have already paid him for."

Please tell me more!!!! Thanks.

[geo in mi]

I'm not a lawyer, nor am I giving any legal advice here, but maybe this will be of use to you.


http://www.business.gov/business-law/ucc/

Read the article included in the website: http://www.business.gov/business-law...t-payment.html

You have to have an enforcable agreement(in writing) with the other party for the ucc 1 law to work. Otherwise it's your word against his.....first rule of doing any business is "Get it in writing"

My personal advice is to get a lawyer to advise and help you enforce your verbal contract.

geo

[luvrulz]

And include legal fees in your settlement amount that way he pays them!

[palani]

Originally Posted by Navotifarm

Please tell me more!!!! Thanks.

This is something that should have taken place immediately after an offer and agreement was in put in place. Doing so now might muddy the waters a little and cause some legal fees but also might cause some companies to back off with doing business as usual with this individual unless he can prove a different source for his timber.

The UCC form simply puts you in line with the rest of the creditors. It does make people question doing business with someone though. Notice no signatures are on the form.




In many states you can go to the Secretary of States web site and do a name search in their database for this material. If you borrow or lend in any way you need to know about the UCC.

[rambler]

You are not the first one nor will be the last one to be taken advantage of with logging.

It's kinda the 1880's out west with cattle - you got to be on your toes, rustlers and lack of identification of the crop makes this a tough one. Wood disappears & is milled up quickly, and there is nothing to identify, find, reposess, etc.

This doesn't help you, but - it's a tough row to hoe. Feel for you.

--->Paul

[Alice In TX/MO]

Unless you can find out where he sold the logs, how much he sold them for, and then file a suit against him, you are out of luck.

Loggers are NOTORIOUS bad dealers around here. I chose my logger VERY carefully.

Edited to add:
I'm not impressed with forestry folks, either. They move at the same rate that trees grow. They aren't responsible for anything. We could cut the federal budget and eliminate all their jobs, and it would be fine with me.

[Navotifarm]

Everything said on here helps me -to some extent overcome my own limited viewpoint - so I do appreciate comments. Just about everybody has had something stolen and maybe the worst is having to listen to scorn and mockery as to how it's YOUR fault. One of the scenarios I hated the most as a court reporter was the rape cases (and this was BEFORE rhohypnol) where it was the victim's fault for wearing provocative clothing, too short a skirt, no bra etc. NO it was the perp's fault who planned and carried out the assault.

In this logger case, he is black AND he can't read. Presumably somebody in his family can read but the contract he brought me to sign read that he "could take out 25 loads before paying me any more money."
To me that indicated there would be an accounting as to number of loads and payment due. Now if a person who can't read signs a contract (without a witness), how valid and enforceable would the contract be??? In all fairness, I cannot imagine that ANY paper signed by an illiterate would be valid.

In the Commonwealth of Virginia, I have found out that loggers don't have to have licenses. Another issue to scream about since I thought I could get him to cough up my $ by having his license yanked.

Deck builders have to have a license and a logger (who is doing really dangerous work that threatens lives) does not. Loggers have to report a job to the forestry department for the very narrow purpose of monitoring if the harm water quality and there's no connection to "commerce."

From what Palani said, what if I file a case againt Joe and subpoena all the saw mills to testify what they paid him during the dates he was on my land? It seems kinda like blackmail but if I rattle my sword at the sawmills, would they put the squeeze on Joe to pay me? I'm looking for a practical strategy here. Ha I'm on the ropes but not down and out. What's the best way to bounce back? I thought about a lawyer on contingency but doubt that would work.

[palani]

Originally Posted by Navotifarm

From what Palani said, what if I file a case againt Joe and subpoena all the saw mills to testify what they paid him during the dates he was on my land? It seems kinda like blackmail but if I rattle my sword at the sawmills, would they put the squeeze on Joe to pay me? I'm looking for a practical strategy here. Ha I'm on the ropes but not down and out. What's the best way to bounce back? I thought about a lawyer on contingency but doubt that would work.

You may always file a lawsuit but that gets expensive and he would most probably just take bankruptcy anyway.

Filing a UCC means that the logger has to have a release from the landlord/owner prior to selling anything. Not sure if the UCC would have any effect on sales prior to the date of filing the UCC with the secretary of state. At this time if you just have a general idea which mills he might have taken your logs to then you just leave a copy of the UCC with each mill. For all you know at this time he is stockpiling your timber somewhere.

These outfits don't like having to pay twice for the same product and they are going to require he prove where he is getting the timber he is selling. It is a nuisance tactic for both the logger and the mill. Makes them keep a little better track of whose property they are purchasing. It means you get paid before the logger gets paid. Your release is required for the logger to sell anything.

[edcopp]

Some pay as much as $10,000 for a seminar to learn how to do things. Sounds like you may fit into this crowd.

[Hoop]

Even though you only have an oral contract, you can still win in court.

Time will however be against you as this will take years.

Take photos of any evidence that logging did in fact, take place on your property. Don't assume the lawyer knows anything, as usually they know very little.

Build your case with evidence. Such things as photos of freshly cut stumps. Photos of trucks hauling logs, etc. Leftover logging debris. Communications. etc. try to get written statements from neighbors or friends stating that XYZ logging, was indeed on your property.
Its possible that the mill the logger sold your logs to may give you some written evidence, but don't count on it. Mills are generally in bed with crooked loggers who continue to keep them supplied with product. Where & how they got the logs is not their concern.
Dig a bit into the loggers past. If you can find any dirt on them, document it.

It will be difficult to win. Certainly not impossible.


I happen to think it is nothing less than insanity for someone to allow another to do work without a written contract.

[mistletoad]

So did he take out more than 25 loads and would it be more of a problem if he were white?

[silverbackMP]

A good forester can estimate the amount taken out based on stumpage. I would recommend that you post your situation over on the forestry forum; those guys/gals know their stuff.

If it were me, I would wage total war (legally) to include ads in the "yellow paper" i.e do not use joe smoe's logging because a, b and c happened to me. Signs off of the road "Joe Smoe logging stole my timber" etc.

I think we need a sticky one of these forums about selling timber; one of these posts seem to appear at least once a month. Of the dozen or so loggers I know, I would trust one.

Silver

[Pam6]

Around here people get paid upfront in cash for timber. My MIL went with one logging company and got her trees done right away. My BIL went with another company, got an immediate payment but has been waiting for over a month to get his trees cut.

I wish you the best of luck in getting your money!

[rambler]

I think negociating a logging contract is kinda like haggling on car prices. It's more of a game/ circus than a legal business transaction. both sides are trying to 'get' each other, and anything is negociable.....

If a person walks into that sort of a thing without realizing it, they can really get taken.

It's not your fault; but you got involved in something that's an old, old custom. If a logger can 'get' 10% of the people he works for, he's done a good job. It's not looked at as stealing from you from their side of things - just as moonshining wasn't looked at as a bad thing from their side of the operation.

The mills will kinda understand the logger more than they understand you in all of this. So, yea, you can get some help from them, but your wood is gone & they won't work with you for 50 years - all the loggers in the area they have to work with next week....

How much effort will they put into helping you, vs continuing to work with all the loggers that bring them a deal from time to time? If the loggers get wood for cheap or free, the mills get a better deal too.

So, you see......

You will need to go after this the right way. Whatever that is. Don't expect the industry to help you - an outsider - a whole lot.

So, did he get 25 loads yet? Perhaps he stopped at 20 loads, went to the next contract, to do the same. Etc. Will come back in 6 months to finish up & pay you then. That would satisfy the contract as you explained it to us? Then he's doing nothing wrong.....

Who was counting the loads? Were the trees estimated so you know where you are at about? Camera on the loads? Count them as they went by?

Certainly you were wronged from what you expected vs what you have gotten. On the other hand you walked into a good old boy's club without knowing what you were doing.

Gets to be a life's education there.

--->Paul

[agmantoo]

Your trees are gone and so is your income from the sale. Pursuing this matter will only end in further disappointment and needless expense. Let me relate a similar situation and its outcome. Three acres of timber was stolen by an adjoining landowner and his hired logger. The owner hired a lawyer. The lawyer told the owner to hire a private forester. A licensed forester was hired and a determination of how much timber was made. The amount of timber stolen was $4500. The lawyer stated that he expected to get a settlement of not less than twice the amount of timber stolen. Remember, the adjacent landowner and the logger got the money from the sale! The logger declared bankruptcy. The landowner denied misdirecting the logger to cut the 3 acres. The lawyer told the tree owner that it would be difficult to substantiate in court that the landowner was lying or not. The lawyer also told the tree owner that the adjacent landowner wanted to make a settlement for $4500 and suggested the tree owner accept the offer as the legal fees were going to escalate if the case went to court. The tree owner accepted. Lawyer fees and forester fees came to $5000+. In essence the adjacent owner and logger passed the amount of the timber they stole and sold back to the tree owner and the tree owner added $500+ to that settlement and paid the lawyer and the forester. Total compensation to the tree owner for trying to recover the value was minus $500+ out of pocket and the loss of 3 acres of fairly good timber. You do not want to hear what I am going to suggest is to take the loss as a theft and cease before getting taken by an attorney and/or the system.

[||Downhome||]

iffin you where younger I would suggest you call this paticular logger and tell him you have some more wood for him and you would like him to come and look it over , then introduce him to a loisville sluger and when the cops show up and arrest him for kicking in the door and forceing you to defend yourself with said bat he should already know to make it right on the contract wether verbal or in wrighting will make things go away.

I know not very honest but i stand behind what comes around goes around.

[edcopp]

My best suggestion would involve several hundred dollars worth of ammunition, and it's proper application. Hard to work without equipment that operates.

[edcopp]

Originally Posted by mistletoad

So did he take out more than 25 loads and would it be more of a problem if he were white?

From my past experience it always makes a difference when a BLACK crook, is playing the PO' DUMB (insert "N" word here) role.

Most of us are sick and tired of being ripped off, and then laughed at.

[Witterbound]

You're going to have to file a lawsuit against him to get anything. Lawsuits cost money. You've got to weigh the cost of the lawsuit against the possibility that you'll get anything out of him when it's all over, if you win the lawsuit. Unfortunately, in situations like these, it often doesn't pay to go after him.

[fantasymaker]

Is there anyway for you to prove he took the logs?
If not your going to have to encurage him to pay you without involving the law.