Goose Krystalnacht

[Navotifarm]

In the thread I started about. Succeeding in complying awith some zoning requirements which were arguably unfairly or even ridiculously enforced, I kind got wrapped around the axle with a chap I have seen from other posts to be highly intelligent and well-informed. But who thinks people's homes should be a minimum of 700 square feet so my little 14x50 home wouldn't be welcome in his neighborhood. That got under my skin, so I tossed in a completely irrevelant comment about a local goose snatch which upset me even more. Is this dude baiting me? He asked for a more complete reference so I blocked and copied the news squib. Forest Lakes is a nice subdivision by the way. Many residents and visitors. .e included) very much enjoyed seing the goose parents raising their goslings and the pretty sight they made cruising about decoratively on the lake. Here's te article. I don't know any more:
"Some from Forest Lakes angered by killing of geese Published: July 3, 2010 Forest Lakes residents have been shocked by the disappearance of Canada geese that usually frolic in the subdivision’s lake.Confusion turned to anger for some who discovered the geese were collected and killed to keep them from slamming into planes.“I’m emotionally upset about it,” subdivision resident Alma Tesoriere said. “It’s a horrific thing.”But Scott Barras said removing the geese was necessary.“In general, Canada geese are the most hazardous animals” when it comes to interfering with planes, said Barras, the Virginia director for the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s wildlife program. The birds, which often top 10 pounds, can get caught in a plane’s engines and cause it to crash.With the Charlottes-ville-Albemarle Airport just miles away, the geese were prime targets.Barras said workers corner them, cage them and drive them away in a big truck. Then they’re taken to a company that slaughters them and donates the meat to zoos or wildlife rehabilitators.- The euthanasia method depends on the contractor, he said.This time of year, Canada geese cannot fly, Barras said. That’s why the geese were targeted last week.In all - potentially including other bodies of water within a few miles of the local airport - 89 geese were caught in Albemarle and killed as part of the annual roundup.Compared with the amount taken from other Virginia localities, the number is relatively small, Barras said.Barras said he could not provide figures for how many geese were taken specifically from the Forest Lakes subdivision. He deferred to the airport questions about where else in Albemarle geese were collected. Multiple attempts late last week to contact head airport officials were unsuccessful.Tesoriere said that if officials must remove the geese, they should be relocated instead of slaughtered.“We have to learn to live with animal life,” Tesoriere said. “It’s just so redneck.”Barras said: “Basically, we don’t want to move the problem to someone else.”Canada geese can damage airplane frames or engines, Barras said, noting they are among the most dangerous animals near airports, largely because they fly in flocks and are big.A plane landed in the Hudson River in New York City on Jan. 15, 2009, after an engine malfunction caused by striking a flock of Canada geese.Tesoriere said she’s upset the geese were taken without residents being warned and given an explanation.“I think the neighbors had no idea,” she said. “I presume I have a right to know.”

[uncle Will in In.]

Trying to relocate geese would be about as effective as rounding up mosquitoes.

[tinknal]

The problem is that the homeowners thought that they "owned" the geese. They were mistaken. You do not "own" wildlife, at least not on an individual basis. If a species becomes overpopulated and a hazard to human life it is the duty of the state to deal with it.

I don't know what happens in VA, but around here when they do a goose roundup the geese are sent to a processing facility and the meat is given to a food shelf or soup kitchen. Seems like a logical solution to me.

BTW, 14 X 50 IS 700 sq ft.

[Patt]

I feel for them in that it would be upsetting to enjoy watching the geese on your local lake and then one day they are all just gone! I wonder if they would let them have tame ducks?

[Alice In TX/MO]

I'd feel pretty badly if one of the geese from my subdivision's lake caused a crash of a commercial airliner and the deaths of hundreds of people.

[Lilandra]

sorry they had to be taken in such a secret manner, but can you imagine the PETA and HSUSA theatrics if there was an advanced notice?

one thing to keep in mind about birds - their feathers and droppings pose a health hazard to people.

[copperkid3]

Originally Posted by tinknal

The problem is that the homeowners thought that they "owned" the geese. They were mistaken. You do not "own" wildlife, at least not on an individual basis. If a species becomes overpopulated
and a hazard to human life it is the duty of the state to deal with it.

I don't know what happens in VA, but around here when they do a goose roundup the geese are sent to a processing facility and the meat is given to a food shelf or soup kitchen. Seems like a logical solution to me.

BTW, 14 X 50 IS 700 sq ft.

************************************************** *********
If we could just 'translate' that idea into having the feds follow the dictates of the Constitution;
to do what is necessary to enforce the laws regarding illegal aliens crossing our borders......
Seems that they can get a handle on 'foreign' birds, but with people, who could be granted
amnesty and citizenship, and who might serve a 'useful purpose' as a large potential
voting block for the party in power, it's an entirely different matter.

[tinknal]

Originally Posted by copperkid3

************************************************** *********
If we could just 'translate' that idea into having the feds follow the dictates of the Constitution;
to do what is necessary to enforce the laws regarding illegal aliens crossing our borders......
Seems that they can get a handle on 'foreign' birds, but with people, who could be granted
amnesty and citizenship, and who might serve a 'useful purpose' as a large potential
voting block for the party in power, it's an entirely different matter.

Heck, I just wish they would come and deport my Canada Thistle.

[Navotifarm]

If they couldn't fly, they would not be a problem for the airplanes. The geese have been here for many years without having caused any airplane accidents. It is common knowledge that the non-migratory Canadian geese are a terrible problem in some areas where they overload an area and are called "rats with wings" and other nasty names. I can certainly see thinning out the flock if it was large (it was not) but why not pinion some of them so they can't fly (or only fly in circles) but so the residents could still enjoy them? The birds were on the property of the subdivision. I can see not notifying PETA but I do believe the Forest Lakes Homeowners' Association, as technically landowners, should have been contacted to discuss the matter. They had beavers, too, which were all snatched away and presumably slaughtered without notice.

Thanks, Tinknal for dong my math for me! I think that when mobile home space is calculated, though, a deduction is made for the tow thing in front so there are some who would say my home is too small for the arbitrary size imposed by folks with large homes. Odd there wuld be a lower limit but not an upper limit, huh?

[tinknal]

They couldn't fly because they were in molt, which only occurs for a short time every year. I'm not sure about VA, but here any navigable water is public, not private.

Navigable water is basically enough to float a canoe.

If it's any consolation, more geese will move in.

[65284]

[QUOTE=Navotifarm;4512798]If they couldn't fly, they would not be a problem for the airplanes. The geese have been here for many years without having caused any airplane accidents. It is common knowledge that the non-migratory Canadian geese are a terrible problem in some areas where they overload an area and are called "rats with wings" and other nasty names. I can certainly see thinning out the flock if it was large (it was not) but why not pinion some of them so they can't fly (or only fly in circles) but so the residents could still enjoy them? QUOTE]

Pinioned geese do fine as long as they have open water. But, if their lake freezes over they are easy pickings for dogs, coyotes and other predators both 2 and 4 legged.

[Maura]

They live near an airport, Canadian geese cause planes to crash, not often, but once in a while. You know what happens to the drakes here at my place? Freezer camp. It's life. The residents need to buy a few ducklings in the spring, or ducks at a market and set them up at the lake. If they can keep duck predators away, they will have a lovely flock of ducks in a short time.

[jross]

Every time someone opens a container of Canola Oil, they are the guilty parties. Canadian farmers filled in the prairie potholes and plowed under the grass with big subsidies from the government to grow Rape. They couldn't call it Rape Oil since they figured no woman would buy it, so they contracted Canada and Oil, hence Canola. I read of this in Field and Stream in the 1950's when I was a kid. Ducks Unlimited started paying some of the farmers huge sums not to destroy the nesting areas of geese and ducks, but it was way to little. Geese need water, grass, and a ton of bugs for the babies, and if it ain't up there, they stay down here to nest. Carrying Capacity of the habitat is a term unknown or ignored by the Disney, HSUS, PeTA graduates of wild animal science. The clutching of little chests and wringing of little hands is what they know.

BTW it's Canada Geese, not Canadian Geese, Freezer Camp! I love it!

[tinknal]

jross The presence of suitable habitat in one place is not going to prevent the exploitation of other suitable habitats. VA doesn't have a non migratory goose population because of Canadian grain production, it has a non migratory goose population because it has a suitable habitat for a non migratory goose population.

[jross]

Originally Posted by tinknal

jross The presence of suitable habitat in one place is not going to prevent the exploitation of other suitable habitats. VA doesn't have a non migratory goose population because of Canadian grain production, it has a non migratory goose population because it has a suitable habitat for a non migratory goose population.

You could be right, however in the fifties and for some time after, in the spring, there were thousands of geese heading North to the Canadian prairie. Now you see a small number heading North, or South depending on the season. Wild animals adapt or die, and Canada geese have done so, with our help of course.

[tinknal]

Originally Posted by jross

You could be right, however in the fifties and for some time after, in the spring, there were thousands of geese heading North to the Canadian prairie. Now you see a small number heading North, or South depending on the season. Wild animals adapt or die, and Canada geese have done so, with our help of course.

Yes, adaptability is the key. The Canada Goose has been successful because it was able to exploit a new niche. Urban and suburban landscapes provide lush mown lawns and the geese love fresh growing grass.

The ringneck pheasant did the same thing. They were able to thrive in areas of domestic grain production and filled a niche that no native species of upland birds were able to adapt to.

[||Downhome||]

if I where a resident I guess I would be upset to, the solution is to have the neighbors get there own geese and as you suggest pinion and band them, then they are private property.

as far as Navigable water it does vary state to state but in most instances water is divided into public and private, just because you can float a canoe or of other low draw craft does not make it navigable. there are a slew of things that are taken into consideration but mostly use for commerce or travel, more so traditional or historical use or if proven potential use. the feds have some say in these things under the commerce clause but states are free to expand upon the federal laws and rulings.

in Michigan most public waters (rivers and streams or joined lakes) are so because they where used for logging and we have the log test to determine a navigable water way.

in the case of a land locked lake, here in Michigan and I did look over your laws al there also , unless the water body in question is bordered by public property (there by making the general public riparian owners) and offers access then that water is private and all riparian rights are reserved to the land owners. and if not its private property and permission is required or its considered trespassing. even in the case of goverment officials unless they can show they had a legal right to be there I.E warrent,probable cause ect.
I'm familiar with our water laws and seems most states are not to different because I and a friend have had a ongoing debate over them.

[tinknal]

OK Downhome, you are right as far as the term "navigable", however, if someone has the ability to get access to the water they may still use the water for legal purposes.

"Keep in mind that most of our lakes and streams are not “meandered” or “navigable”
waters. Consequently, whoever owns the shoreline also owns the land under the water. While a
boater may run watercraft over the entire surface of the water body, when the bed is dry…keep
off. Sorry myth, but that’s the way it is!"
PDF


http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/publica...on_Me_Myth.pdf

Years ago I went duck hunting with a friend of mine. He knew of a little gem of a duck slough that was public land, but surrounded by private property. The landowners did everything they could to restrict access. There was a county ditch that ran along side the public land and crossed a road. We put canoes in the ditch and accessed the land via the ditch.

I would imagine that if a body of water was big enough to land a float plane that one could do so, even if all the land around the lake was private property.

[||Downhome||]

here ya go al,

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/waters/...nd_answers.pdf

What is considered trespassing when the public seeks access to a water body?
The belief that the state owns a strip of land around all Minnesota lakes for public use is false. Riparian property (property abutting a lake, river, or wetland) is either privately or publicly owned. The general public can access water bodies or watercourses via public property, but not through private property. Individuals entering private property without permission from the landowner are trespassing and may be prosecuted under the state trespass laws. It is illegal to trespass on private property in order to gain access to a water body or watercourse without first obtaining the verbal or written permission from a landowner. A person who has legally gained access to a water body may use its entire surface for recreation, such as boating, swimming, or fishing. Using the underlying bed of the lake or river, if access was gained legally, is called “incidental use”; the use of the bed or bottom is incidental to the water body’s primary use. Examples include poling or anchoring a boat, wading on the bed to swim or fish, and anchoring decoys or traps.

basicly my take is if there is public access(right of way or other) anywhere along that water body it gives the public the same rights as any other land owner to all that water and all connecting water, wether navigable or not. if you gain written permission from a land owner you may gain access through their property and have use of the surface water just the same.

so I will agree you are correct if you have a legal access point.

here in michigan a road right of way or easement does not qualify as legal access as that ROW or easement is for the use specified. have a lake like that just around the corner. though it does have a channel from it to another lake that a camp ground is located on so you can gain access there.

in my county the powers that be own property around most of the larger water bodys, so access is availble to the public.

[jross]

Originally Posted by tinknal

Yes, adaptability is the key. The Canada Goose has been successful because it was able to exploit a new niche. Urban and suburban landscapes provide lush mown lawns and the geese love fresh growing grass.

The ringneck pheasant did the same thing. They were able to thrive in areas of domestic grain production and filled a niche that no native species of upland birds were able to adapt to.

The same farming practices also caused the virtual extinction of ringnecks in New Jersey. To plant more, the hedgerows were removed, cover crop was planted, and the beans and corn are doused with pesticide. No cover, no food, and chicks consumed contaminated insects.