Self Reliant Community

[treasureacres]

After reading several posts over the past few weeks about how bad large corporations, farm programs, and gmo's are, I was wondering how long a community (5,000 people) could last if did not have access to the modern world. Food could only come from local farms that do not accept farm subsidy payments. All power/energy must come from local sources that are not subsidized by government. Farmers are not allowed to use gmo seed or round-up or any other terrible chemical developed by evil Monsanto or Pioneer. No Wal-marts or other large corp/chain stores to by food or clothes. Questions I have would be how long could a community like this survive? Could farmers grow enough to feed everyone without all of the modern farming techniques? Could people even afford to live in such a place because I would think things might be expensive? If such a place existed here in the U.S., and if I could afford to live there, I think it would be awsome and would do so.

[Otter]

Originally Posted by treasureacres

s. Questions I have would be how long could a community like this survive?
Could farmers grow enough to feed everyone without all of the modern farming techniques?

LOL!
1) For all of human development up until the last 100 years.
2) Yes, see 1

The problem you run into today is, in a community like that, who makes the computers? Or chest freezers? Or wire fencing?

You should open this can of worms on the Survival forum

[AngieM2]

Thanks Otter

treasureacres - Survival forum would be an interesting group to talk to about this... this forum is also, but you'd get two different overall thoughts between the two forums.


Angie

[treasureacres]

Originally Posted by Otter

LOL!
1) For all of human development up until the last 100 years.
2) Yes, see 1

The problem you run into today is, in a community like that, who makes the computers? Or chest freezers? Or wire fencing?

You should open this can of worms on the Survival forum

I understand that this worked 100 years ago, but I am talking today. These topics have been brought up in other threads lately so I am curious how people think this would work. I am not saying there would not be stores that sell computers or fencing supplies, but they must be locally owned "mom & pop" stores, no BestBuy or Tractor supply.

[Saffron]

1 - During the initial startup phase, certain things would have to be allowed as the community is not prepared to be self-sufficient from day 1.

2 - These mom & pop stores may get their stock from China, just like the big box stores do. What then?

3 - Are you talking self-sufficient in that it would eventually revert back to horse and buggy days, no computers, no electricity? Or electricity only through wind or solar, computers allowed - but what about the source of the parts?


I know of a small 5 family community that is very similar to what you are talking about. They only got power about 3-4 years ago and did it through solar. You would think they are part of the Plain People with how they live and dress, but the main man of the community (who started it) works for some really big business in USA, so he has the $$ to put into the community. They farm and are almost completely self-sufficient.


IDK if this would work to be truly self-sufficient these days if they could not be willing to release many of the modern trappings (such as computers). I think any truly self-sufficient community eventually reverts back to about 100 years ago eventually.

Look at the Amish - most of those communities are no longer self-sufficient. Some even have computers and real electricity and other modern things at their places of business. They would take a hit if everything collapsed. At least at their homes, they are still used to living like that and could do well that way, but their businesses would be ruined and I wonder how many have let themselves get sucked into the modern life on that side of things.

[wyld thang]

5000 is still a really big number of people to support, concentrated in "community". Through time that has always been a "city" and stuff was brought through and traded. If you add in land to farm to support that many people, and they have to go out and farm it, that leaves very little resources to defend that square milage--the tenants(or too many of the able bodied ones) are just too spread out doing the farm work.

We moan a lot about our government here in America, but we've got it really cushy--the Mongol hordes aren't cutting off heads, the Romans aren't trying to colonize us(nor the Portugese...). Tutsis(or is it Hutus?) aren't allowed to get mad and start killing the Hutus, just because they're Hutus. The welfare person today has amenities available only to kings a few hundred years ago.

All that said , the Warm Springs tribe here in Oregon has a lot of great self sufficient qualities. In addition to running a resort, they have their own timber lands, which also supports a wood burning almost zero emission power plant that provides power(and jobs) for the tribe--and I believe the power utility is free to the tribe members. I wish I can find more information about all they do, what I hear seems like self sufficiency is a value born out in different ways. They are also big on preserving and teaching the old skills, as well as the language.

PS I think there is geothermal at Warm SPrings, ie the "warm" springs. And the nearest Walmart is probably at least 50 miles away.

[wyld thang]

Actually I'm sure there are pockets still now in the US like that, like in Appalachia, and I know I've been in parts of Oregon you drive through and people look at you like "what's the big box on wheels making a loud noise?" Not saying "backwards", just very remote and forgotten, and that's the way the people want to keep it.

[mudburn]

I think it would work, but only if the people involved really wanted it to work. There are historical examples (plenty of them) that demonstrate that the concept is sound. One of the foreseeable problems is the community members wanting more than the community could provide, meaning it really wouldn't be self-sufficient.

People have been conditioned through multiple channels that we need the "good things in life," things like cell phones, digital TV, computers, the latest fashions, fancy houses, etc. Usually, these things are accumulated through debt. This is unsustainable and would undermine the objectives of a self-sufficient community.

Such a community, IMO, would need to be committed to several things:

1. debt-free living
2. rejection of rampant consumerism
3. emphasis on family, including extended family
4. recognition of individual rights and the corresponding responsibility to protect/ensure those rights for others
5. appreciation and respect for hard work
6. contentment with simple, wholesome things

I'm sure there are more things that could be added to the list, but my point is that such a community would require basic cultural change and a moral commitment to a "better" way of life. And, yes, I do believe it would require "stepping back in time," which is not a bad thing. The "advantages" and "good things" we enjoy in our modern age are not necessarily the blessings and wealth that we may think. I'm afraid that we have exchanged real blessings and wealth that existed in the past for an illusion.

mudburn

[Beeman]

Total fiction

First off the "community" would have to be a business or be comprised of millionaires to start with. Without cash flow it's over quick. How much 'local" stuff can you buy, I'll give you 500 mi. as local, in your area?

[treasureacres]

Even if small local stores would import items from china, they would never be able to buy the volume of the big box stores which would make prices very high.

5000 people is just a number I chose, smaller towns would make somethings easier (food production), but would not be able to maintain retails stores. Larger would make it almost impossible to feed, but could maintain more industry and retail.

[tinknal]

This is basically a Utopian community you are talking about. They have been tried multiple times and they all ultimately fail.

[Alice In TX/MO]

Research "Intentional Communities"

http://www.ic.org/

http://www.livingearthgatherings.org..._findhorn.html

http://www.ananda.org/ananda/spiritual-communities/

[haypoint]

I agree with tinknal, not with mudburn.
Hundreds of reasons why it fails. Top of the list: human nature.

[rambler]

You are describing how humans lived for centuries. Survival. You made do with what you had, or you died.

It works. Very feast or famine way to live. Lot of hard work, no time for soccer games in the next town, or that new big screen TV.

It is _work_ to keep yourself any your family alive.

Most folk given the choice don't want to go back to that. They might think of it fondly, and want to visit for a year or 2, but they sure get sick of the backbreaking work & no future in a short time.

Interesting question tho, makes a person think.

--->Paul

[geo in mi]

There WAS one such community that existed for about twenty years. It was called Walnut grove.

geo

[pancho]

Wouldn't ever work. The people would be spending too much time in jail to do any real work. For a place to work like that it would mean the children would have to be put to work. Just try getting a group of any size together and making the children work along side of them. No computer games, no tv, no malls.
I think child abuse is what they call it now.

[stickinthemud]

Interesting that you chose "5000 people" as community size. IIRC that was what the author of "Guns, Germs & Steel" found to be the lower limit of sustainable culture. Smaller groups died out.

[arabian knight]

Yuppers not in this day in age. Not to that extent. Maybe a few in isolated spots but never in a population of 5,000 in one community. Too many variables to start with. And even if one was started up just to get it underway would be very expensive. And would have to have quite a few very rich folks to get the start up needs, even to begin.

[Kriket]

For sure search intentional communities, there is one in YS called the Vale and one in Oregon (?) called Rabbit Run. There is also a Womyn's community in Ohio call Susan B Anthony land trust.

While none of these are "cut off" from the world, they try to be self sufficient.

If you want to drop a dome over a random city, they are all going to kill each other. Stephen King wrote a pretty good book about it.

If you have like minded people who are interested in a communal lifestyle then you have a chance. You can't have a bunch of "things" the lifestyle would be very "primitive" but honestly, I am more interested in that lifestyle than I am in the consumer driven society.

With that said. I understand that it takes all kind. When I had a concussion, I like that there was a clean hospital with a large machine to scan me.

[motdaugrnds]

I can see "individual" homesteads networking together for self-sufficiency via a barder system. I don't see 5000 people getting together for self-sufficiency. There are just too many barriers, including psychological & social.