Electricians and physicists- help please

[Jenn]

The metal handrail, about 8' of curved metal tubing, on our pool steps carries an electrical current when it is hot and sunny. Mild tingle to the touch and concentrates the sting in cuts on one's hand. More so when you're in the pool than out. This is true even when the circuit to the pool electrics is turned off.

Explanations? Fix needed?

I have not yet verified that it still happens when all house current is off (I sure hope the pool builder did not wire anything on a separate circuit!!!!), though the pool is closer to the electric pole than our fuse box and meter. Also the pool lights have never worked properly but their circuit breaker is always tripped.

[Curtis B]

Even if the breaker is tripped you can still get some backfeed through the neutral. Sounds like you have a bad ground though.

[farminghandyman]

it is call stray voltage,

and there are special guide lines in the proper grounding and building a ground plane in around and under the pool, that puts everything on a equal potential,

ever rebar and ever metal item is to be bonded and grounded, in the pool area,

what is happening and (one may never be able to find the source), is that electricity is flowing back to the generation plant via the ground, and not all following the wires back, this could be to poor grounding and some poor connections in the neutral side of the wiring,

it is a major issue in swimming pools and dairy farms, (many animals are much more subtable to voltage than people, I think I read that women are more than men),
watch this video it will give one the technical explanation of stray voltage,
http://www.mikeholt.com/strayVoltageVideo.php
some more possible help,
http://www.mikeholt.com/technical.ph...ewslettersmenu



look up stray voltage, but if the pool is new, I think you may have a claim with the pool installer, and if a licensed electrician was not used to wire the pool up then you IMO have a definite claim,

one may be able to stop the by ringing the pool area with ground rods driven in about ever 6' around the pool and hook them all together, and to the electrical ground, and grounding out the hand rail may help,

the problem could be on your wiring or it may be a utility problem,

[farminghandyman]

I can't find the picture I want but this will inform you on how the pool should be bonded and grounded.
http://ecmweb.com/grounding/electric...vs_bonding_11/
simular but about the seciton in the NEC,
http://ecmweb.com/nec/top2008neccxs_021909/


Pools and Spas — Part 1 of 3
http://ecmweb.com/nec/code-basics/po...d-spas-090401/
Pools and Spas — Part 2 of 3
http://ecmweb.com/nec/code-basics/po...as-2-20090501/
Pools and Spas — Part 3 of 3
http://ecmweb.com/nec/code-basics/po...as-3-20090601/

[Jenn]

Thank you farminghandyman! It certainly is worse when our AC is running- 20' away from the pool- so hopefully a better ground for that will mitigate it. But I will get someone to verify it is ONLY ha ha stray voltage, not faulty wiring with a worse shock risk. Good thing we aren't cows.

[jross]

1. A GFCI should feed the pool.
2. All metal such as deck supports, pump motor, metal filter, should be on one common ground at and through the GFCI..
3. There is a backfeed from the neutral or ground, and a GFCI would detect any fault either way.

[tiogacounty]

try this..... Turn off ALL the nearby power sources, then buy or borrow a multi-meter. Take a long piece of copper scrap wire and use it as a jumper. Set the meter to OHMs.Have a helper connect the meter and the scrap wire jumper between every exposed metal piece of the pool, one test at a time. The reading should be awfully close to zero resistance in every case. If the handrail shows a few OHMs or greater resistance, it is not properly bonded. In the pool bonding I have done on commercial pools, all the handrails were seated in substantial bronze sockets inbedded in the deck. These sockets had built in ground lugs for the bonding wire. Everything should be at the same potential, no difference in readings. Good luck......

[tiogacounty]

Originally Posted by jross

1. A GFCI should feed the pool.
2. All metal such as deck supports, pump motor, metal filter, should be on one common ground at and through the GFCI..
3. There is a backfeed from the neutral or ground, and a GFCI would detect any fault either way.

WRONG. The metal parts you list are BONDED TOGETHER, not grounded, this is so they do not develop a difference in potential, or a voltage gradient while traveling from one area of the pool to another, or touching a grounded surface while standing on another. This may not have anything to do with a backfeed, and may not necessarily be detected by a GFCI. This is a potentially deadly situation, better addressed by professionals, not armchair electricians....

[jross]

Originally Posted by tiogacounty

WRONG. The metal parts you list are BONDED TOGETHER, not grounded, this is so they do not develop a difference in potential, or a voltage gradient while traveling from one area of the pool to another, or touching a grounded surface while standing on another. This may not have anything to do with a backfeed, and may not necessarily be detected by a GFCI. This is a potentially deadly situation, better addressed by professionals, not armchair electricians....

You are telling me that I didn't have to connect that No. 10 green wire from the deck, to the supports, and to the motor frame, and then to the house ground? Where were you when our electrical inspector insisted we do so? Explain why a bond wire shouldn't be grounded? One fact is that our pool was partially in the ground, nearly all aluminum, with a high water table, no one ever got a tingle, considering the person who wired our place was an idiot. I agree about the professional part.

[tiogacounty]

Originally Posted by jross

You are telling me that I didn't have to connect that No. 10 green wire from the deck, to the supports, and to the motor frame, and then to the house ground? Where were you when our electrical inspector insisted we do so? Explain why a bond wire shouldn't be grounded? One fact is that our pool was partially in the ground, nearly all aluminum, with a high water table, no one ever got a tingle, considering the person who wired our place was an idiot. I agree about the professional part.

I am specifically NOT telling you to do anything, nor would I advise anybody on the subject of pool grounding or bonding on-line. If you do not know the difference between the two, get a qualified professional. That said we recently suffered through a few years of a local inspector who literally didn't know his butt from a hole in the ground, and forced a lot of electricians and homeowners to spend a lot of money bonding " above ground, metal shell pools", where there is no code requirement, or logical reason to do so. Just yesterday I had an inspector attempt to fail a new service install of mine for grounding issues. I told him he was wrong, and needed to consult with the electrical engineer at his company for a final ruling on the issue. He had a long conversation with the boss and returned with a "passed" sticker. Bottom line is that grounding and bonding are both complex issues that are frequently misunderstood. BTW, even your inspector was wrong, the correct bond wire is typically a bare, solid #8 copper, insulated conductors are undesirable for this application.