Mainers! I need your input!

[cbcansurvive]

My wife and I are heading to Maine for the first time at the end of the month but we've fallen in love and are planning our trip for next year already! We're going to Mount Desert Island this time around, but want to head west next summer to rent a cabin on a lake. We've decided that we want to work toward a goal of establishing a camp that we can use for vacations in the summer and hunting in the fall/winter. Saving the money will certainly take a while which is fine because we'll need plenty of time to do our homework so that we can make an informed decision when the time comes. I'll break this up into topics so that it will be easier for folks to respond to specific points.

Location
We live in northwestern NJ and pretty much any location in Maine is within 13 hours of us (we are exactly 674 miles/11 hours 42 minutes from Caribou, ME, according to Google Maps), so we're open as far as locations go. What we are looking for is basically something secluded either with lake frontage or with a decent sized pond on the property. As long as its a body of water big enough to fish, swim, and canoe in it will fit our needs. As for the land itself, again, we're flexible, but we're active people who like to hike, ride ATVs, hunt, and shoot. Also, there would likely be four or five of us hunting at any given time, so enough space for that is important too. I would say we're looking for at least 15 acres but no more than 30. Being "near" things isn't really a concern of ours as anytime we visited we would bring everything we needed or it would be left there year to year (ie: pots and pans, etc...), and our primary reason for choosing Maine is to "get away." However, in the interest of a possible emergency or something of that nature it would be nice to be within 1 and 1/2 to 2 hours of some sort of town. It doesn't seem like this is too tough to do in Maine though. For example I just picked Rangely in Franklin County. You don't seem to have to go too far outside of the town in order to find lakes and ponds that are completely unsettled. Again, I'm just using that as an example-we're open to other locations if they fit our needs/price range better.

Municipal Government (Or the absence of)
At this point I should point out that I only know a little about unorganized territories. As I understand it unorganized territories are administered by the state which I'm assuming means that all land use ordinances, building permits/variances, property taxes, etc...are handled through the state. Does this make it easier or harder when it comes to building? Are there building codes? What are the taxes like? Are there basic requirements for vacation properties that are not used as a permanent residence? How about land use? Obviously things like wetlands areas and septics and wells are regulated, but what about other things?

Logistical questions
Another factor that is going to influence our decision is accessibility during different times of the year. From what I know about Maine so far the biggest obstacles to accessibility are mud and snow. I'm sure that this tends to vary with the region so let's hypothetically take Franklin County, which would be the Western Mountains and Lakes Region which tends to range in elevation between 1500 and 2000'. Assuming that I have four wheel drive, good tires, decent ground clearance, and chains, will I be able to get around in that area during deer season (November)? How about if we decided to spend time there between Christmas and New Years? Now for summer-when does mud season end? If we wanted or needed to get to the property during mud season would we be able to get there?

That's basically all I can think of for right now, but I'm sure that more questions will come out of this. I'd appreciate any feedback anyone can give me.

[VT Chicklit]

My Mother In Law lives on Grahm Lake, just out side of Ellsworth, ME. It is not that far from Mount Desert Island (about 1/2 hour drive). Ellsworth is quite populated but Grahm Lake, which is quite large, is very sparsely populated. Grahm Lake is in several townships, Marriahville being one.

[ET1 SS]

Originally Posted by cbcansurvive

My wife and I are heading to Maine for the first time at the end of the month but we've fallen in love and are planning our trip for next year already!

Neat

... We're going to Mount Desert Island this time around, but want to head west next summer to rent a cabin on a lake. We've decided that we want to work toward a goal of establishing a camp that we can use for vacations in the summer and hunting in the fall/winter. Saving the money will certainly take a while which is fine because we'll need plenty of time to do our homework so that we can make an informed decision when the time comes. I'll break this up into topics so that it will be easier for folks to respond to specific points.

I know some folks that live near MDI.

...
Location
We live in northwestern NJ and pretty much any location in Maine is within 13 hours of us (we are exactly 674 miles/11 hours 42 minutes from Caribou, ME, according to Google Maps), so we're open as far as locations go.

We got to talking with a lady who lived in NJ, she came up here and is now renting while looking to buy a cabin. She dropped two ConEx boxes on my land to store her stuff, while she is looking for land.

She seems to be very happy with her move.

...
What we are looking for is basically something secluded either with lake frontage or with a decent sized pond on the property. As long as its a body of water big enough to fish, swim, and canoe in it will fit our needs.

Maine has lots of rivers, lakes and ponds.

My land has 1/4 mile of riverfrontage.

...
As for the land itself, again, we're flexible, but we're active people who like to hike, ride ATVs, hunt, and shoot. Also, there would likely be four or five of us hunting at any given time, so enough space for that is important too. I would say we're looking for at least 15 acres but no more than 30. Being "near" things isn't really a concern of ours as anytime we visited we would bring everything we needed or it would be left there year to year (ie: pots and pans, etc...), and our primary reason for choosing Maine is to "get away."

So far that narrows it down to most of Maine.

...
However, in the interest of a possible emergency or something of that nature it would be nice to be within 1 and 1/2 to 2 hours of some sort of town. It doesn't seem like this is too tough to do in Maine though.

Yeah

We are about 25 minutes from: an international airport, a comfort hospital, a teaching hospital, shopping mall, box stores, a state university, 2 private colleges and a seminary.

Our township is pretty rural, 9 people per square-mile.

...
For example I just picked Rangely in Franklin County. You don't seem to have to go too far outside of the town in order to find lakes and ponds that are completely unsettled. Again, I'm just using that as an example-we're open to other locations if they fit our needs/price range better.

Well really, most of Maine fits your criteria so far.

...
Municipal Government (Or the absence of)
At this point I should point out that I only know a little about unorganized territories. As I understand it unorganized territories are administered by the state which I'm assuming means that all land use ordinances, building permits/variances, property taxes, etc ... are handled through the state.

52% of the townships of Maine are UTs.

Our township was Organized but they burned the town charter in 1935, so now we are a UT.

...
Does this make it easier or harder when it comes to building? Are there building codes? What are the taxes like?

Building is pretty easy, most folks build their own homes [ I did / am ].

Every building permit is good for 5-years, and includes a certificate of self-inspection. When you are done building, you inspect it, and you mail the certificate to Augusta.

If land is in a 'Tax Use' program then taxes are low.

Most of Maine is in 'Treegrowth'. Most of my land is in Treegrowth. It means that every 10-years a licensed Forester needs to look at the land and form a 'plan' of how your going to grow trees. Timber, firewood, dense forest for wildlife, christmas trees, fruit orchards, all these are forms of 'Treegrowth'.

Maine also has 'Farmland', 'Open Space' and 'Working Waterfront' Use programs.

My forest land is taxed at about $1.05 per acre each year.

... Are there basic requirements for vacation properties that are not used as a permanent residence? How about land use? Obviously things like wetlands areas and septics and wells are regulated, but what about other things?

If your structure has a permanent foundation made of stone or concrete then it is permanent and needs a building permit. Which removes that land from 'Treegrowth', and makes it residential.

If you were to drop a cabin on blocks, or a houseboat on pontoons, or a trailer back in the forest; then no building permit is needed and it does not change the Treegrowth status.

Shallow wells are common. They require no permit.

Drilled wells cost more and often will need electricity to pump the water. Also there location must be recorded with the government.

...
Logistical questions
Another factor that is going to influence our decision is accessibility during different times of the year. From what I know about Maine so far the biggest obstacles to accessibility are mud and snow. I'm sure that this tends to vary with the region so let's hypothetically take Franklin County, which would be the Western Mountains and Lakes Region which tends to range in elevation between 1500 and 2000'. Assuming that I have four wheel drive, good tires, decent ground clearance, and chains, will I be able to get around in that area during deer season (November)?

Yes.

...
How about if we decided to spend time there between Christmas and New Years? Now for summer-when does mud season end? If we wanted or needed to get to the property during mud season would we be able to get there?

I do not see why not.

...
That's basically all I can think of for right now, but I'm sure that more questions will come out of this. I'd appreciate any feedback anyone can give me.

Okay.

[cbcansurvive]

ET1-thanks! This is a lot of great information.

Originally Posted by ET1 SS

Building is pretty easy, most folks build their own homes [ I did / am ]. Every building permit is good for 5-years, and includes a certificate of self-inspection. When you are done building, you inspect it, and you mail the certificate to Augusta.

I did read up on the LURC website-they have some helpful brochures on what to know before you purchase land or build. It sounds like as long as you do your homework you'll be just fine.

Originally Posted by ET1 SS

If land is in a 'Tax Use' program then taxes are low. Most of Maine is in 'Treegrowth'. Most of my land is in Treegrowth. It means that every 10-years a licensed Forester needs to look at the land and form a 'plan' of how your going to grow trees. Timber, firewood, dense forest for wildlife, christmas trees, fruit orchards, all these are forms of 'Treegrowth'. Maine also has 'Farmland', 'Open Space' and 'Working Waterfront' Use programs. My forest land is taxed at about $1.05 per acre each year.

So if I understand this correctly whatever land I end up purchasing will likely be "Treegrowth." The taxes are certainly the right price, but how much do the foresters charge for their services? What do the plans typically involve? Is it just removing dead and diseased trees and invasive species or is it planting new trees as well? Do you designate what type of "Treegrowth" plan you're going to go with? For example, can I call a forester and just say "Hi, I own land in Treegrowth and would like to institute a management plan for firewood?" How much would you say it costs you per year to stick to the plan and how much time does it take? I ask because since this will be a second residence for us and I wonder if it would just be easier to pay regular property taxes if they're not too high.

Originally Posted by ET1 SS

If your structure has a permanent foundation made of stone or concrete then it is permanent and needs a building permit. Which removes that land from 'Treegrowth', and makes it residential. If you were to drop a cabin on blocks, or a houseboat on pontoons, or a trailer back in the forest; then no building permit is needed and it does not change the Treegrowth status. Shallow wells are common. They require no permit. Drilled wells cost more and often will need electricity to pump the water. Also there location must be recorded with the government.

I am thinking that we may still go the permanent structure because we would be installing a septic system and a drilled well anyway. I plan on solar taking care of the power for the house, but when we're there we'll use a gasoline powered generator to run the well pump long enough to fill a cistern that will supply our water for the amount of time we'll be there. Also, since the well and septic will already be in place, we'll be set if we ever decide to move there permanently (which we might). Thanks for all of your help-I'm very interested to hear from other Mainers!

[ET1 SS]

Originally Posted by cbcansurvive

... So if I understand this correctly whatever land I end up purchasing will likely be "Treegrowth." The taxes are certainly the right price, but how much do the foresters charge for their services?

Land not in a tax status is assessed as residential.

I have one acre of land that is assessed as residential, that one acre costs me $850/year in taxes.

It makes a big difference.

Plus the state assesses my house and taxes it.

Foresters charge about $300 to look at your land and give you a 'plan'.

... What do the plans typically involve? Is it just removing dead and diseased trees and invasive species or is it planting new trees as well? Do you designate what type of "Treegrowth" plan you're going to go with? For example, can I call a forester and just say "Hi, I own land in Treegrowth and would like to institute a management plan for firewood?" How much would you say it costs you per year to stick to the plan and how much time does it take? I ask because since this will be a second residence for us and I wonder if it would just be easier to pay regular property taxes if they're not too high.

Your plan is your property, you paid for it, and nobody else has any 'rights' to see it.

The forester will sign a document testifying that he gave you a plan, and he will send it to LURC.

For the next 10-years, nobody outside of you and your forester will have any idea of what is in your plan. And really since his fee is so low, you will not hear from him again for 10 years.

Pruning trees is only required if you are going for something that needs pruning [like timber or christmas trees].

Planting new trees is not encouraged by the state. Other states do encourage planting, but Maine does not.

My 'plan' says: [Keep in mind that I am not in any legal requirement to ever tell anyone what is in my plan] that I can harvest firewood, or grow timber, or christmas trees, or pulp wood, or fruit trees, or simply let it go as wildlife habitat.

The guy before me was a forester, he had clear-cut this land.

The maples are coming back but they are re-sprouting from the stumps as bushes. Otherwise I have lots of fir and birch.

I tap some of the bigger maple trees for sap.

... I am thinking that we may still go the permanent structure because we would be installing a septic system and a drilled well anyway.

Nearly all of Maine has shallow water. A 10' or 20' shallow well works fine with a handpump. This is an area that has not seen a drought in it's recorded history. There are no 'aquifers' that you must drill into while drilling a well, dig a hole and you hit water.

Composting toilets are popular.

Grey-water can freely flow into the forest.

If you had a honey-wagon you could pump black-water into it, and later discharge it onto any open field [even on your own land].

... I plan on solar taking care of the power for the house, but when we're there we'll use a gasoline powered generator to run the well pump long enough to fill a cistern that will supply our water for the amount of time we'll be there. Also, since the well and septic will already be in place, we'll be set if we ever decide to move there permanently (which we might). Thanks for all of your help-I'm very interested to hear from other Mainers!

I am familiar with cistern systems, mostly in regions that are subject to droughts. I have not seen any cisterns in Maine.

Shallow wells can usually draw up water year around.

Feel free to spend as much money as you wish to spend, it helps the economy

There are permanent residents that use outhouses and handpumps, both are legal.



I wish you the best of luck in your endeavours.

May Divine Providence bless you.

[pyrnad]

I am in Farmington about an hour south of Rangely. I live in Franklin County. Access to most places in winter and mud season is not too difficult. As long as you have the right vehicles.

[cbcansurvive]

Originally Posted by ET1 SS

Land not in a tax status is assessed as residential.
I have one acre of land that is assessed as residential, that one acre costs me $850/year in taxes. It makes a big difference. Plus the state assesses my house and taxes it. Foresters charge about $300 to look at your land and give you a 'plan'. Your plan is your property, you paid for it, and nobody else has any 'rights' to see it. The forester will sign a document testifying that he gave you a plan, and he will send it to LURC. For the next 10-years, nobody outside of you and your forester will have any idea of what is in your plan. And really since his fee is so low, you will not hear from him again for 10 years. Pruning trees is only required if you are going for something that needs pruning [like timber or christmas trees]. Planting new trees is not encouraged by the state. Other states do encourage planting, but Maine does not.

My 'plan' says: [Keep in mind that I am not in any legal requirement to ever tell anyone what is in my plan] that I can harvest firewood, or grow timber, or christmas trees, or pulp wood, or fruit trees, or simply let it go as wildlife habitat. The guy before me was a forester, he had clear-cut this land. The maples are coming back but they are re-sprouting from the stumps as bushes. Otherwise I have lots of fir and birch. I tap some of the bigger maple trees for sap.

Thanks for clarifying. I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't going to end up in a situation where I would have to keep traveling back and forth to maintain the forested land and pay a lot for the services of the forester. I certainly have no problem with felling a few trees every time we visit for firewood!

Originally Posted by ET1 SS

Nearly all of Maine has shallow water. A 10' or 20' shallow well works fine with a handpump. This is an area that has not seen a drought in it's recorded history. There are no 'aquifers' that you must drill into while drilling a well, dig a hole and you hit water. Composting toilets are popular. Grey-water can freely flow into the forest. If you had a honey-wagon you could pump black-water into it, and later discharge it onto any open field [even on your own land].

All good points to consider-thanks! I think we might be checking out the lakes around Millinocket after we leave Bar Harbor, so we'll see what we find up there.