Need to learn how to evaluate....

[SirDude]

(SORRY FOR THE LONG-WINDED POST)

Hi,

I have been working on going off the grid for a while now, and I am feeling like I am missing something when it comes to searching for land. So I am here looking to find out what I am missing.

I am looking to build my own small cabin / cottage / home, and as I said, I want to be 100% off the grid. I do not need to be close to utilities, etc. I do plan on growing as much of my own food as I can and would like to raise some animals (at some point in time) like Chickens, Goats, and maybe Rabbits?

Utilities seem to be pretty straight-forward, Solar, Well or Rain harvesting, etc, but when it comes to Land and Location, I am missing the fundamentals. I understand that everything has a trade-off in some shape or form.

I need to move out of where I am, but for now I am a Florida resident. Born in northern IL and have spent my share of time working in different parts of the US, so I know each area has something to offer. The main areas I am looking in are here in FL, north-western IL, IA, CO and WA / northern OR. East TN / west NC are not out of the question and I'm open minded to northern NM / northern AZ. (cheaper land, and open to some alternative building, etc)

So are the drier areas with the cheaper land worth the trade-off's - more watering, desert soil, etc? I know there's plenty of people who are off the grid in the southwest and get by just find on the annual rain-fall and/or a well.

I like the weather in FL (most of the time) but the sandy soil is a big question-mark for me. A friend did very well growing all his stuff in Earthboxes or raised beds, and I grew some veggies, but what about the animals? I'm use to the big fat Midwest cows, never did adjust to the sight of the cattle down here. haha I hear the sand adds problems, will the Goats have a problem?

Nothing like the Midwest soil, but I never had to grow anything when I was a kid, so is the shorter growing season and the cost of green houses, growing tubes worth the benefit of the good soil?

Sorry for the long-winded post, in general I am looking to learn how to evaluate the differences in locations. $10,000 for an acre here in FL might be a deal over the $600 acre some place else if it's going to cost me an arm and leg to water my plants and feed my livestock and/or building shelters for both in cold climate???

Thanks for your input.

SirDude

[sgl42]

i think the price of most land is driven by proximity to large population centers with high-paying jobs. i'd say any land within 1-1.5 hours from a city larger than 500,000 population is likely to be on the expensive end, as prices are set by real estate developers and speculators, not farmers. also, closer to cities means more zoning/building codes/regulation, and hence higher costs, particularly if you're wanting to do something unusual (eg, go off-grid).

only far outside the large population centers (>1-1.5 hour drive) will you find that land is priced based on it's agricultural value. ie, in rural kansas, oklahoma, south dakota, etc, you'll see land priced based on how good the soil is, not how close to jobs it is. "junk" land with little ag value for large-scale ag might still be very suitable for small-scale gardening of you do a lot of composting.

if you have to take out a mortgage for the land, you'll need a job, unless you have a pension. in many parts, where there's cheap land, there aren't many decent paying jobs. or, the decent paying jobs may require a long commute, which takes time and money away from homesteading activities. depending on what type of work you do, and how friendly the locals are to outsiders, it may be easy or hard to find work after uprooting yourself and move to a new area.

the average american today spends only about 10% of their income on food. so even if you grow all your own food, you still have a lot of other expenses. even if you can buy the land outright, and build the house for cheap yourself without a loan, you'll still have transportation/gas, insurance, medical, etc. in other words, i don't think better gardening alone is sufficient reason to choose one area of the country over another.

so, i'd look at what type of landscape, climate, you like (some like mountains, some like beaches, some hate snow, some hate heat, etc), first. then, based on any limitations from what type of work you can do, adjust where you look based on that, and local payscales for that type of work, and how easy/hard it is to find a job for that type of work.

--sgl

[Navotifarm]

With the climate change, rising of sea levels and flood dangers, or earthquake dangers, you might think about places NOT to be and places, snug against mountains where there is good or adequate rainfall, no danger of floods, and good soil.
Then a look at the kind of people and local assets. For me that would mean wanting to locate in a community where there is a fine university or college. Then think about taxes, zoning, restrictions, etc.
Also, what about family? Friends? Connections? Do you want to start all new relationships from scratch or do you have some you value and respect?
Then there are the psychic connections. There are people who dowse for their ideal or best locations. Lastly, you could get several small parcel of land in different locations and make you a solar cabin on wheels so you can tarryhoot around till you find your favorite place.

[motdaugrnds]

In order to get even better suggestions/information, you might want to let us know something about your physical, psychological & financial situation, i.e. Do you require certain medical treatments & are you dependant on working for some employer?

These pretty much dictate your living situation. Then you can go from there as to "where" you might be satisfied to dwell.

[Common Tator]

Originally Posted by SirDude

(SORRY FOR THE LONG-WINDED POST)
I'm use to the big fat Midwest cows, never did adjust to the sight of the cattle down here. haha I hear the sand adds problems, will the Goats have a problem?
SirDude

You need to choose animals that will thrive in the environment you grow them in. You want animals that will do well browsing, and not need too much in the way of supplimental feeding, at least in the spring, summer and fall.

When you decide on an area, try to see what others in your area have for livestock and talk to the locals about the pluses and minuses of various breeds.

[Beeman]

"The main areas I am looking in are here in FL, north-western IL, IA, CO and WA / northern OR. East TN / west NC are not out of the question and I'm open minded to northern NM / northern AZ. (cheaper land, and open to some alternative building, etc)"

From the areas you posted there is such a difference there is no way to draw comparisons. Cheap land is cheap for a good reason. Many times it's not just because of utilities or their availability.

[ronbre]

with all of the forclosures in Michigan you can get homes or land or even farms really cheap (check craigslist northern Michign real estatet sites).

Myself i would be looking for land with either water on it or flowing wells available so that you have a readily available supply of water..and you can always use catchment.

yes the soil here is great and you don't need a super long growing season if you root cellar winter vegetables and winter sow your spring greens and sow a good fall garden so it produces well into the fall.

right now i'm eating wild vegetables and perennial ones from my garden and self seeded or regrowing ones (last years swiss chard and cabbages have regrown, lambsquarters and early lettuces and spinaches are coming on, rhubarb, asparagus, etc.) you can also hunt in the winter time here and spring and fall of course..for your meat..and you can dry/jerk it over a fireplace

[Wolf mom]

I live in the NE area of Arizona - sitting on the largest aquifir in Arizona! BUT your well will be 350-450 ft. deep. Not cheap. Land further out than me is really inexpensive but you'd do fine as you want to be off grid.

Do you need to work? How far are you willing to travel for work? Travel time really cuts into a work-around-the-homestead day.

Are you willing to live isolated? A person your age will want companionship & living 'far out' isn't conducive of that. Maybe not right away due to your recent divorce, but someday. Coming from the "big city" I found that the lack of social/intellectual options frustrationg. And having to drive 2-3 hours one way for any was inhibiting. 4 hour drive for a Sun's game? & back at 2 AM - forget it.

Soil? You can always amend it especially with animals. May take a few years, but it's really not a large issue.

Living in Fla. do you like snow? Humidity? Climate is important, not just animals and vegies. It's like the wind here & waiting for my trees to grow & block it is my issue.

My bottom line issues were a place to ride without hauling my horse, land costs and water. I figured I could work most anything else out. I also didn't want a LOT of snow or high humidity. Now about the wind....

So, I guess my thoughts to you are have a heart to heart with yourself, figure out what your bottom line is and go from there. NO place will be absolutely perfect. (Beware: there are those here who will say differently)

If you get too many wants or have-to-haves in your head at once, it'll only muddy the water and with research, you'l find there are ways to resolve most issues.

Good luck - have fun - and learn a lot here while researching.

[SFM in KY]

Lived most of my life in Montana (not actually IN the mountains) plus some years in southern Nevada. Have now been in KY for 12 years, so somewhat familiar with the milder, wetter climate here.

Some generalities:

Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Idaho will have a lot of similarities. Semi-arid and because of the low rainfall, unless you have water rights for irrigating, it takes a lot of acreage to run any kind of livestock during the summer grazing months and you will have to buy hay for winter. Gardening will be short season and you will have to water, which means a good well and in that region, water can be deep and sometimes simply not there. Water is probably the first thing you need to consider there.

Water is probably the thing you would need to consider first in Arizona, New Mexico, Utah ... generally SW ... again, desert or semi-arid at best.

Winters in the north are long and cold ... if you're heating with wood or coal you need a source ... if you're doing your own wood, that is a LOT of wood. Summer heat is more the issue in the SW.

Southern KY, TN, NC probably some of MO have a similar climate. I don't do well in the summer heat/humidity but if that is not a problem for you, there are advantages to this area. Enough rainfall that irrigating for pasture isn't necessary and it is rarely necessary to water a garden either. Longer growing season. Shorter and milder winters. Seems as if there is a lot of overcast so I'm not sure how that would affect solar energy ... we have had a solar fence charger which seemed to work fine at least during the summer.

You should also look at building codes for state and county wherever you buy. Some places can have some very odd requirements which may impact you if you are going off grid. Check on well permits too ... some places have restrictions on that.

[MushCreek]

We currently live a bit north of you in the Tampa/St Pete area. We bought land in rural SC, near the NC border. We had a unique set of needs that it seems to fill. We both need to work, and be near a city. Our property is 15 miles from the center of Greenville SC. We paid $10K an acre, but it's all usable land, and close to the city. It's also right at the base of the Blue Ridge mountains, so it's a pretty area, and not quite as beastly hot as the rest of SC. Winters are mild and short.

We originally looked in western NC, and it can't be beat for scenery (at least on the east coast) but it has gotten too expensive to find usable land. If you head a bit further out of town in SC, prices drop quite a bit. It seems to be undiscovered as of yet. Taxes and homeowner's insurance are cheap, at least compared to FL.

FL has advantages, mostly due to the climate, but it is hot, and getting expensive. Our homeowners insurance shot up to $3000 a year! Also, FL building codes are some of the toughest in the country due to hurricanes. You can find areas of NC, SC, TN, etc where they don't even have building inspection!

There are many on-line tools you can use to search for land, and determine it's usefulness once you find some potential pieces. It's easy to search real estate prices anywhere, and you can use Google Earth to scope out the neighborhood. if the area you look in has a GIS site, you can get a lot more info, down to topography and even soil types.

Another good forum you might like is at countryplans.com. There are a lot of cabin builders there (they sell neat cabin plans) and a number of folks living off grid at various levels. More cabin oriented, less homestead oriented.

[Patt]

Wow I agree that is pretty hard to draw a comparison on with such a wide variety of places and climates. Personally I like the middle of the country: like TN, AR, KY etc. because we have all 4 seasons, a decent amount of rainfall, laws are not overly stringent, land is still fairly cheap, and you can find growing markets for small producers of garden vegetables, fruits or free range meats/eggs.

So to narrow things down: what do you prefer in a climate? How many hoops do you mind jumping through from a building perspective? How do you plan to earn money on your homestead? And how much do you have to spend on one?

[SirDude]

WOW WOW WOW, thank you for all the great replies!

I'll try to answer some of the questions and concerns y'all had in short form.

1) I am self-employed, and for now I travel the country repairing hail damage on vehicles. So local work is not top concerns right now.

2) I am looking for my first piece of land to be as cheap as possible. I know it's not going to be my last or "thee" piece of land. (more on this in a minute)

3) No, all the states or areas I listed can not be compared "apples to apples" so to speak. But, other then FL (where I currently live) the main part of the list I posted were all places that have some kind of seasons. Unlike Florida's two seasons - Hurricane and Non-Hurricane season. LOL

4) I am human, so yes I will sooner or later want / need some kind of contact with the outside world. ie; Friends, Neighbors, Martians

5) Climate, I like it all and I know I can't have it all. There are bigger concerns. (get to them in a minute also)

6) Need for hospitals and other amenities, like anyone, there is always a chance of needing medical treatment, so that would be nice, and since I would more then likely be starting from raw land, I would need some kind of stores, Home Depot, Tractor Supply, etc.

OK, I think I didn't do a very good job at asking the right question and maybe gave a little too much information, so things got a little side-tracked. Since I am not an expert at this, I am not sure how to ask the right questions, I will try it again. (thank you for dealing with me)

I know I need to find what climate, area, etc. that is important to me, but what I would like to understand better is given multiple choices of similar tracts of land and prices. How do you evaluate them? Here's an example and for the sake of this post, I did all the same prices and acreage. In real life the prices are not the same and the acreage is not the same.

All the tracts of land have 1 ac, and are priced at $5000. All have a few tree, but for the most part are cleared, flat to maybe a little rolling hills. All will need a house build, heating and cooling, water, electric, etc installed. All provide the stores, social life, etc that I will need.

(this is where I'm trying to find the hidden costs and problems)
Tract 1 is cool to cold winters, and dry annual precip.,dry soil, short growing season, maybe something like CO.
Tract 2 is cold and wet winters, medium to wet summer, good soil, short growing season, maybe something like IA
Tract 3 is mild and wet winter,medium to wet summer, ok to maybe clay soil, maybe something like GA.
Tract 4 is warm to hot winter, medium to wet summer, sandy soil, year-round growing season, maybe something like FL.

Which one would cost me more in the long run to develop and have more problems due to the location? I know I left out taxes, etc. I'm more concerned about needing to build shelter for the animals, buy feed for them, what problems does the short growing season cause. Local wild animals cause? Choosing animals / livestock is a whole other set of problems.

I see a location like central FL and I say great, everything grows like weeds down here so the Goats would never run out of stuff to eat, the chickens would have plenty of bugs to pick at, I would need to build in shade, but wouldn't have to worry about an enclosed shelter for them.

A place like CO I think the animals will need to be protected from both the wild animals and the cold winters and will need feed a lot of the time.

Does this make any sense? Each area is going to have their Pro's and Con's and Costs and Savings, but is one tract cheaper and less problems then the others, if all purchased for the same price?

I hope this has helped clarify what I am looking for.

Thank you,

SirDude

[rambler]

Originally Posted by SirDude

Which one would cost me more in the long run to develop and have more problems due to the location?

I suspect, like me, you like science fiction, you dodn't just laugh at Big Bang Theory but you actually understand most of it....

You are looking at this like a math equasion.

But life doesn't work that way.

You pick a spot you like, based on a gut feeling you can't explain, and you carve your life out of that spot, using what it offers, and beating into submission it's defects.

And that is how we humans live.

I understand your question, but if you put any value into a logical answer, then you will never actually get to 'there'. It will always remain a hypothetical question.

Throw a dart, follow your gut, curse the bad parts of your location, sit back & enjoy the good parts, and make it work.

That's how it's done.

We will continue to point out the finer points, and not answer your bigger question. For the answer to your bigger question has little value, would help you about as much as saying 'The answer is 42.'

If you buy in a dry area, have a source of water available. If you buy up here in a cold area, have a lot of trees available. And so on. Those are the real answers.....

--->Paul

[Navotifarm]

Paul has given you just about the best answer possible.
I would add, as to specifics, that if your income is mainly derived from hail damage repair, it would make sense for you to locate where the major part of your work is to save time and expense "commuting."
If you want land at the lowest price with four seasons, why not consider West Virginia?

[Jan Doling]

If you think our cattle are puny....wait til you see the Key deer

[greenhorn]

Ohio is nice.........

http://www.realtor.com/realestateand...647?source=web

[SirDude]

Rambler, thanks for your thoughts.

Navotifarm, as far as the hail work, as long as I'm not really in any of the "corners" of the US I am ok. I have to drive for work anyway, about 25,000 miles a year, so it doesn't matter. That's the life of a mobile business.

Jan Doling, yes, I have seen the Key Deer while driving down to Key West some time ago, If they weren't on the endangered list I would love to take one home with me. Funny thing is, I think the Raccoons around me are bigger then the ones I had living by me in IL. Most be from all the wasted food the restaurants around here through out.

I need to take some time to rethink this question. I don't know if I am giving too much info or not enough, but it's just not coming out right. Be back in a while.

Thanks,

SirDude

[Patt]

Let me tell you why we picked Arkansas and maybe it will help. I think I understand what you are asking by the way, I just can't tell you the answer to all 4 different places.

When we decided we really wanted to homestead back about 10 years ago the first thing we looked at was climate. When it comes down to bare necessities you need food, water and shelter and you want them to come as easily and cheaply as possible right? In the middle of the country we have a nice long growing season and I can keep some things going year around. We also have good hunting and fishing laws so providing your own food is easier. Animals need minimal winter shelter and forage is available for a greater part of the year. It doesn't get too hot here in the summer, we have decent rainfall, and so with heavy mulching very little irrigation is needed.

On the shelter there are plenty of trees if you want to build your own. Building codes are reasonable to non existent depending on how far out you go. People tend to live and let live in most of the middle states. You can heat with wood so your utility costs will be less too.

On the water we have springs and creeks and lakes all over down here. It is also easy to dig a well.

Our cost of living tends to be cheaper in general and the cost of land and property taxes are low too once you get outside of heavily populated areas.

The only downside we have here is the heat. And for some people that is a serious downside.

[Navotifarm]

SirDude, I think what you are looking for is a spreadsheet kind of lay-out like they have on the back of Quicken and other software boxes. One would think they'd have that sort of thing for land right now but perhaps you could make one up yourself. It would be an interesting task and really fun if you like to do research! Patt gave you an excellent answer as did Paul. Or perhaps you could start a new thread, not with your four variables (which didn't find much resonance with me, for example), and ask people what the determining factors were as to why they located where they did?
My reasons were that I had moved to Charlottesville because it was a university town, had a large number of bookstores, and the surrounding countryside was, to my taste just perfect. I bought a mobile home in a mh park. I had land in West Virginia. I wanted to barter my land, even trade, for land not more than ten minutes from the park so I could move my home onto it. I wanted to have miles of woods around to ride trail horses on. Now, that was a big order, but I was able to find a man who lived in West Virginia who had been given wooded land near me by his parents. His mother died of cancer. His Dad moved to Colorado. He didn't want his Virginia land and I couldn't find work in West Virginia, so a barter gave us each what we wanted.
So my "spreadsheet" of desires or priorities is really different from Patt's. Yet we both "homestead".
And we both have land where we wanted it to be. At one point I thought about Arkansas or North Carolina but an exploratory trip in summer heat changed my mind fast! (Not that I enjoy Virginia summer humid heat!)

[SirDude]

Hi, Thank you both for your input.

Navotifarm, you have a good point and have sparked a new question / thread.

Patt, you touched on it by saying you could only tell me about your area and not all four. Which right before reading that I had a flash-back to a couple of years ago. The wife (at the time) and I were visiting her friends who breed horses and grow soybeans out in western Nebraska. We were riding along in their pick-up and we passed a piece of land that they pointed out just came up for sale, (I think it was a hint to us) their little kid before any of the adults said anything spoke up and he said "that's not a good land for horses." To me, a suburbanite / island guy, it looked no different then their land just down the road. So how does a 8 to 10 year old country boy look at a piece of land and evaluate it that fast?

So I'm getting the feeling that what I am trying to learn is not something you can sum up in one question.

The other thought I had at giving this thread another try is this.

If a person is standing there looking at a piece of land, I would think they would run down some kind of a check list, whether it in their head or on paper, they would look to see if there is;

(all the questions I already know to ask)
Room for shelter, out-buildings? / What would it take to build them?
What water is available? / Where would it come from well, city, rain-harvesting,??? / Is there enough rain if rain-harvesting?
How much is wooded or open land?
Is there good year-round sun if you are depending on solar energy?
Distances to things you need, feed or lumber stores, hospitals, Post Office, etc?
What are the taxes, building codes, etc?

Then there's the things I can't put my finger on, but know enough to seek out more knowledge before just buying any piece of land:
Is raising animals going to be harder on this land then maybe down the road, across the country?
Will I need to feed more because of the lack of natural feed? Cold winters?
Is this soil going to cause problems with my livestock by ingesting too much sand, clay, etc? Bad drainage?
Am I going to have to spend extra time, money, ???, to make the soil ready, when the guy down the road is planting his crop?
Etc, etc.

I know if I dug deep enough into survival guides there would be some kind of list of the best places or ways to live off the land or be self sufficient on your own land. I am not so much of an "end of the world" kind of guy, but I am looking to do with a lot less dependency on the outside world.

Another thing that bugs me is I know as soon as I would "just pick one" someone will come along (they always do) and say something like "why did you buy that place, didn't you know you are going to have problems with...." Yes, you can not avoid everything, but I'm not doing anything different then someone researching a new car, or washing machine purchase.

The less money I waste on preventable costs (and effort) is that much less that I need to earn. If my land can provide me with most of the things I need to live on, then it means less time and money wasted working for someone else or working some place else. My step-father use to say "Work smarter, not harder." Homesteading, farming, and ranching (from the little that I have done) are hard enough work, so why make life harder then it needs to be?

Thank you all for putting up with this drawn out question???

SirDude