What to do about our new hayfield?

weedlady · #1 05/14/10, 03:35 PM

Dh and I just closed on our property in the UP

The farmer across the road has been cutting the hay on about 10 acres, and wants to know if we want him to continue.

We won't be living there for several years, so yes I want him to cut the hay, but what sort of arrangements are normal and customary?
I don't want 1/2 the hay-it's a 9 hour drive from where we live now, and I only have two goats!
DH thinks we should just let him have the hay in return for keeping an eye on things, and for future goodwill. I have no idea how much hay we are talking about. I don't really have a problem with that, but I think it is setting a precedent that we may not want to stick with forever. I also think we should have an idea how much $ we are "throwing away" by doing that.

I think we should ask him what the arrangement was with the previous owner and stick with something close to that-maybe make it a little better for him as payment for being our "watch dog".

You guys are the experts on this kind of stuff...what do you think?
Martha

fishhead · #2 05/14/10, 04:08 PM

At some point you are going to have to buy fertilizer to replace the nutrients that are removed in the hay. That is going to cost someone.

**Ross** · #3 05/14/10, 04:24 PM

Ask for some fertilizer and let him have the hay as goodwill. We've land for decades on that arrangement. We have given them cedar trees or spruce seedlings now and then, and we respect their wishes for cropping. Hay only.

coup · #4 05/14/10, 05:25 PM

i would ask him what he has in mind,,if it sounds good then say we will go year by year. i would ask him for a year to year total of the hay.

Old Vet · #5 05/14/10, 06:40 PM

In my area you can have all the you can cut just for keeping it cut if you are not living on the property. Once you move you can have half or maybe even a third at no cost to you. Any thing else will cost you. Fertilizer will cost you because you don't use it up each year.

geo in mi · #6 05/14/10, 07:00 PM

I think the general rule is September to September on any kind of crop agreement. Your sale/purchase agreement should have stated some kind of arrangement for this summer(should have something like "subject to lessee's right to harvest") based on the former owner's agreement with him last year, but since he's asking...... apparently not--it was pretty informal. I would say, okay for this summer, then we'll get together in September, so you and I can make plans for next year. And then keep it open--year to year. What you agree to each September is binding on both of you for the next year.

geo

Harry Chickpea · #7 05/14/10, 07:17 PM

Three cuts a year to keep the thistle and other weeds from gaining a foothold, keeping the branches and brush cut back at the edges so the field doesn't shrink, lime as needed, keep the fences in good repair, and he cuts at his own risk. Let him do it for all the hay, and tell him you'll give him a couple years notice before you want to take over. That way he'll know he won't be spending money on lime and effort on the edges for nothing. Set a couple dates each year when you meet and walk the property after he has cut and baled.

Chixarecute · #8 05/14/10, 08:54 PM

Three cuttings per year is pretty hard to get in the UP, two maybe if you have a good legume base. Grass fields will only yield one cutting this far north. With fuel prices the way they are, I doubt you'll get the farmer to do two extra cuttings for thistle control.

Have a soil test done, that way you'll know how much lime & fertilizer is needed to maintain the stand. I'm not sure of this year's lime price, but we put nitrogen & potassium on our fields - 3/4 ton each, at a pretty miserly 150# per acre. Bill was $684.00, which included a $30 delivery & spreader charge.

We can tell from the yields over the years that all of that fertilizer is used by the plants each year. We get enough extra hay off the field to pay for the fertilizer. We should be putting on at 250# per acre, building it up a bit, but at the 150# we are maintaining.

Harry Chickpea · #9 05/14/10, 10:37 PM

Good advice, and a good reality check on costs.

rambler · #10 05/15/10, 12:41 AM

Low ground that is deep soil & tends to be wet can produce hay for a long time with little fertilizer.

If the land is in grass for some other reason - sandy, clay hill, shallow soil, etc. then it will produce less & less without fert. That might not bother you at this point? But you see an example of the costs to start bringing it back if it is low in fertility....

Typically the land owner can get 1/2 to 1/3 of the hay in an arrangement such as you have there. But that is if you keep the hay in good shape - if you let it get thin then it's not worth the effort & duel to cut it & still share bales.

So, for free might be a good deal & don't bother with fertilizer.

Or, depending on the situation, getting 1/3 of the hay might be a good deal. Actually, you would get the $$$ value of 1/3 of the hay.

I'd kinda lean towards doing it on the free side. Or work out a deal that he does a little bit of fertilizing in return for the hay - if he neglects that, at least he gets less hay & you don't lose $$$$ out of your pocket, so low risk to you.....

As to the September to September lease someone mentioned:

In many states there is a rule that you cannot throw an ag renter off the land in spring. Many upper midwest states that rule kicks in in September - if he was not notified that he could not make hay from this land before September 2009, he _could_ demand that he still farm it this year for the same arrangement he had last year. That would be rude of him; but you should be aware these rules are out there, and he might be expecting you to follow that if you have no other plans for the place anyhow.....

Ask him how the deal worked out previously, I'd lean towards free for watching the place, but make sure it is understood this will change some year, and best to revisit the issue every year & make sure no one assumes too much.

When you don't want him there any more, let him know well in time so he can line up some hay from somewhere else. A farmer gets kind of attached to land he rents; it's hard to explain that, we know it isn't ours, but we get to know it real well & get a feeling for it, can be kinda hard to part with sometimes.

--->Paul

weedlady · #11 05/15/10, 09:17 AM

Thanks for all the input. We will talk with the farmer, but I'm now in agreement with DH, we let him have the all the hay in return for keeping an eye on the place. You're right, that will mean we're getting it mowed for free.
Hadn't thought about the fertilizer issue-will remember to talk with him about that also.
Thanks again for the very helpful ideas.
Martha

rambler · #12 05/15/10, 09:37 AM

I realize my reply 'rambled' all over the place, but there are so many ways to look at this.

If this is prime ground that could grow corn or soybeans, and if it is good alfalfa hay or good horse grass hay in an area that has a lot of horses, then you have a valuable 10 acres & you should get something in return, as well as maintain the fertility.

If you have poorer ground, not suited for much else but whatever 'weed' grasses came up, and harvesting thin grass, wet grass, or rocky ground - then the neighbor is doing you a favor to harvest it for free to keep the weeds down.

Your exact situation is somewhere in between, and so there are many possibilities of what is right for your situation.

As well it's hard to guess how much hay you get off of 10 acres without knowing what type of hay, how many cuttings in that area, how god the ground is. It's possible to get 400 bales worth $3 each per acre from really good situation; and it's possible to get 50 bales from a poorer acre with some issues & if there is low demand for hay in the area would be worth $1.50 a bale. The 50 bale deal you better give away; the 400 bale deal you'd expect to get a cut of it.

This is just such a wide-open question.

--->Paul

paintboy · #13 05/15/10, 10:05 AM

So if we use rambler's best case production we are talking about $1200. If we subtract 2 days labor, fuel, tractor use etc. that should cut it down to $600. So you would be spending $600 to have your property maintained and watched. Sounds like a bargain to me. Let him have the hay with the understanding that you intend on living there and farming it yourself some time in the future.

texican · #14 05/15/10, 11:12 AM

Odds are, if the guy's been haying it for years, he's been fertilizing it. Un-fertilized hay is ok for greenhorns (hobbyists), but folks that make a living off their animals want their hay to be fertilized, so it actually does a cow/horse some good, instead of just being belly filler.

I'd tell him to keep on haying... it's worth it in goodwill, and keeping the pasture maintained... if you only plan on having a handful of animals once you move up, say you may want enough hay to feed your critters thru the year. (25% of the hay wouldn't be asking too much. Halfsies is rare nowadays, as the cost of running the equipment keeps going up. Also, craigslist is swamped in haying season with folks willing to give their grass away for free if someone will come out and bale it).

chewie · #15 05/15/10, 11:19 AM

we did exactly this for 10 years on our current place. the nice older farmer hayed it all those years, kept tools in the barn, etc. and now, he gave me a bale of hay when i was desparate, i watch his dog when he wants to visit family, his wife bottled my kids when i went away for a day, i can ride in his fields, and even take some fresh cut alfafa for the goats when i want.

no way would i have been able to 'buy' this. it was SO worth the hay he got from our land. like you, we had no way to move it, why not let him have it? then our place didn't have the abandon look, which is always a bad idea!

and its possible if you ask for payment or something, he may just say no. then what are you going to do? let him have it, make a good friend. our fella is also wise and is a good one to ask help about. a good guy to have in our corner!

francismilker · #16 05/15/10, 02:42 PM

Some folks, (especially us farmer/backwood folks), don't take too well to newcomers moving in whether we're willing to admit it or not. IMHO, if you want to be "accepted" by the neighbor I wouldn't change a thing. Otherwise, you might be considered one of the hair-brain "californians" or "greedy" for every dime you can get your hands on.

If I was going to change things at all in the future I'd go about it slow. Give him a year or two's notice before you make the move so you both can have a future plan worked out for your hay needs and his abilities to keep cutting it.

weedlady · #17 05/15/10, 03:45 PM

Yep, I agree. His goodwill and a good neighbor is worth way more than any monetary benefit we would see.
I know we will always be considered "outsiders". We plan to make every effort to be "those nice people from Ohio". I think it's pretty much settled and DH and I are in agreement-he can continue to cut and keep the hay, at least until we get moved.
thanks again for all your advice.-I'm sure I'll have plenty more questions in the near future!
Martha