Whats your process for vaccinating your animals?

[RiverPines]

I am curious as it seems people seem to do it all differently.

For SQ:
I find an area with loose skin and pull it up to make a tent.
I put the needle into the base of that tent where its the widest at a more horizontal angle than straight down.
I pull back on the plunger to make sure I dont get blood due to hitting a vein.
If its all good I inject fast and pull out the needle when emptied.
Then I rub the area, vigorously and rough, for a minimum of 60 seconds, I time it, or more if I can still feel any sign of the fluids.

For IM:
I find an area with good thick muscle.
I put the needle through the skin and into the muscle at a slightly tilted angle, mostly downward, unless the muscle is thin than I adjust the angle so I dont go through and out the other side of the muscle or hit bone.
I pull back on the plunger to make sure I dont get blood due to hitting a vein.
If its all good I inject fast and pull out the needle when emptied.
Then I rub the area, vigorously and rough, for a full 60 seconds or longer if I can still feel a lump no matter how small. Once in a goat it took a full 3 minutes to totally rub the fluid into the tissue.

I dont swab with alcohol first.

If I hit vein I pull out and try again in a different spot. That only has happened twice in the many years and many animals I have poked. Its one of my fears. I hate hitting vein.

I never have gotten a vaccine lump on any animals be it dog, cat, goat, sheep or mini horse.
Nor a lump after medication injections for illness.

[Joshie]

With IM injections you pick an area with thick muscle. It's highly unlikely that you'll hit anything like bone as long as you pick an appropriate area. Think about flu shots. They use 1- 1 1/2" long needles in the upper arm and don't hit anything.

For an IM injection you put the needle in up to the hub. You want to pull back and make sure you don't see blood. If you do see blood you should do the injection in another area.

It sounds like you're giving intradermal instead of subcutaneous injections. There's no reason to pull back when giving an intradermal or a subcutaneous injection. There aren't large vessels in those areas.

In humans, subcutaneous (SQ or SC) injections are often given into the belly.

I'm not a vet but I'm a nurse. I've never rubbed an injection site. Just gave shots to the horses. I researched equine vaccinations and it appears that using alcohol on the site hasn't been proven to reduce infection. It's suggested that any mud or dirt be brushed off the area.

http://www.brooksidepress.org/Produc..._Section_3.htm

IM injections are done straight in. Angled injections are usually SQ.

http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p2020.pdf
http://www.crvetcenter.com/injection.htm

[RiverPines]

Originally Posted by Joshie

With IM injections you pick an area with thick muscle. It's highly unlikely that you'll hit anything like bone as long as you pick an appropriate area. Think about flu shots. They use 1- 1 1/2" long needles in the upper arm and don't hit anything.

For an IM injection you put the needle in up to the hub. You want to pull back and make sure you don't see blood. If you do see blood you should do the injection in another area.

It sounds like you're giving intradermal instead of subcutaneous injections. There's no reason to pull back when giving an intradermal or a subcutaneous injection. There aren't large vessels in those areas.

In humans, subcutaneous (SQ or SC) injections are often given into the belly.

I'm not a vet but I'm a nurse. I've never rubbed an injection site. Just gave shots to the horses. I researched equine vaccinations and it appears that using alcohol on the site hasn't been proven to reduce infection. It's suggested that any mud or dirt be brushed off the area.

http://www.brooksidepress.org/Produc..._Section_3.htm

IM injections are done straight in. Angled injections are usually SQ.

http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p2020.pdf
http://www.crvetcenter.com/injection.htm

This thread was to share how everyone does it. Not to pick apart everyone's methods.
What works for one doesnt always work well for another.

And my SQ are under the skin, not in it, hence the tent to create the space.
And you can hit vein when going SQ if your doing an uncooperative sheep thats wiggling and has tight skin to top it off making it difficult to get 'under' the skin.

As for hitting bone going IM, yes you can when your giving Penicillin injections into a cat that was very ill and very thin with almost no muscle left on it.

And how much needle is going in depends on the length of the needle and the animal and its circumstances your working with. My needles are all long as thats the length for all the gauges at my farm store.
I could easily go to deep under many circumstances, like that cat I took care of, which recovered and gained weight and found a new home. She was a someone elses throw away I took her in and nursed back to health.

[Ronney]

For SQ I use the soft area behind and slighly below the ear of pigs, sheep and cattle. Tent the skin, insert the needle, let the skin go and inject. When vaccinating sheep, I do it in the same area but don't bother with tenting the skin - it is a much smaller dosage and a short needle. I don't rub the area afterwards unless it has been a large amount and rubbing does help to disperse it under the skin.

IM I hate and because I do I tend to get stressed then make a mess of it. I don't know why I have a problem with it but I do. But when I have to do them, I bang the muscle several times with my balled fist then the next time it's the needle not my fist. If I've not managed to pass on my lack of confidence to the animal, it goes in without any problems.

Cats and dogs for SQ, I pick up the loose skin above the shoulders/lower neck area, insert the needle and it's all over.

Riverpines, does your vet clinic stock needles? I don't buy mine from the stock and station agents as they don't have a wide enough choice so get them from the vet clinic and have needles of just about every guage over every length to cover just about everything I would ever have to inject to any animal I own.

The only scarring I have left behind is when injecting for copper - and that is a nasty thing to have to give.

Cheers,
Ronnie

[mamahen]

I really, really, really don't like to give IM.....really. But when I have to, I give it in the neck of any critter that will be eaten. That triangle by the shoulder/neck area. I also smack the area a couple of times, then inject. If I'm not totally nervous, I remember to pull back a bit before I inject.

If it's for my goats (who will never be eaten) I still give in the neck.

The first time I gave a SQ, it was for my very sick pygmy doe. I did it on her shoulder area. I was giving vit. b complex with needles recommended by a goat mentor (she had bigger goats, I'm guessing). When I pulled out the needle, the vit. b trickled out, too. I thought I went the whole way through. I had to give 2 injections, 2 times a day, for 7 days. blech. It was an experience.

SQ is so much easier!! At least in looser skinned critters!

[Cheryl aka JM]

I avoid giving them at all~ but I wind up doing it because...well...I guess I'm not as good at avoiding it as everyone else in the household is.

SQ I do the skin tent thing and pray the animal will hold still. If it's a large animal I enlist as many people as possible to sit on the animal during this procedure. If it's a very large animal we tie the animal and attempt to distract it as much as possible with as many wonderful treats as possible.

For IM my vet just taught me that thumping trick~ thump with fist, thump with fist, thump with fist, thump with needle not attached to syringe and explain to the horse or cow that it's a shame a big old fly bit them on the neck just now. Then when the animal calms down put the syringe on the needle, pull back a bit and then inject as fast as possible. Thump some more with fist after and give treats if the animal has not already knocked me down, thrown off all the people trying to hold it down, pulled the rope tying him in half and taken off for the next county. (kidding...a little)

My vet showed me the thumping trick~ which actually does work really well~ after I gave a calf a vaccine and then called him in a panic because I thought I'd killed him. He just looked up at me and then fell over...apparently dead! And the vet was CLOSED. And I was panicked! But the calf woke up and the vet explained that I probably just hit a nerve and sent him into a little shock reaction. The thumping and needle in the neck trick is much less traumatic than "dead cow" for both me and the cow! (or calf, or horse, or goat, or whatever)

[mamahen]

I have the same problem finding enough "helpers" to hold. I usually end up calling the teenaged neighbor girl who loves critters as much as me. She helps a little. There's a fine line between helping & get out of the way!

I have to give my 3 bulls tentanus shots & then castrate myself. NO ONE will help, so I've been building up courage to do it this weekend. They are 4-500.... I know it will be easy. No, really!! These guys are so laid back, I know I can slip the band on quickly while their head is in the bucket of feed. I've just never used the bander before. So I'm practicing on tennis balls this weekend

[edmonds]

Originally Posted by mamahen

I have to give my 3 bulls tentanus shots & then castrate myself.

Not many people would castrate themselves. (Couldn't resist.)

[fishhead]

I never give IM because most shots don't require it and it causes unnecessary pain. Research from decades ago shows that according to Sue Reith.

I point the needle up and push the plunger until it starts to come out. Then I pinch a tent and kind of snap my wrist like a whip stabbing the tip into the tent. Then I quickly finish pushing the tip in deep and push on the plunger. I follow it up with a brisk rubbing. Most of the time they don't even flinch.

Then I stand there for a while trying to slow my heartbeat. I HATE shots.

[Dorothea]

i do it the easy way,,,i call the vets and make an appointment

[Joshie]

Originally Posted by RiverPines

This thread was to share how everyone does it. Not to pick apart everyone's methods.
What works for one doesnt always work well for another.

And my SQ are under the skin, not in it, hence the tent to create the space.
And you can hit vein when going SQ if your doing an uncooperative sheep thats wiggling and has tight skin to top it off making it difficult to get 'under' the skin.

As for hitting bone going IM, yes you can when your giving Penicillin injections into a cat that was very ill and very thin with almost no muscle left on it.

And how much needle is going in depends on the length of the needle and the animal and its circumstances your working with. My needles are all long as thats the length for all the gauges at my farm store.
I could easily go to deep under many circumstances, like that cat I took care of, which recovered and gained weight and found a new home. She was a someone elses throw away I took her in and nursed back to health.

I certainly didn't pick anyone apart. I added links to show the proper techniques. I did not say anything bad about you or your technique.

It can be difficult to know how to do each type of injection so the links are helpful. They are for me anyway.

If an animal is emaciated you'd certainly have to use a shorter needle or have a vet care for the animal. Most people give most injections to healthy animals.

Here's an intradermal injection in a rabbit. http://wildlife1.wildlifeinformation...njection03.JPG

Here's a picture of a subcutaneous injection. If you notice these injections are given into the fatty layer. If you tent the skin you may miss this area. SQ injections are given deeper than just below the skin. They are given into the tissue below that. Lifting up the skin/tenting the skin will likely cause one to give an injection below the skin and not into the tissue below that. http://www2a.cdc.gov/nip/isd/ycts/mo...bcutaneous.jpg

I think that this link best shows where each type of injection is given. From your description, though, lifting the skin is something you'd do for an intradermal injection. To clarify this I'd ask your vet. If you don't see the pictures immediately you can look at Dental Dictionary: injection http://www.answers.com/topic/injection

I think that this is an interesting and helpful thread. It can be quite difficult to understand the differences between the different types of injections.

[sheepish]

No one has mentioned changing needles. We use a new needle for each animal to avoid passing blood born diseases from one to another. This is pretty cheap protection.

[Minelson]

SQ - pull up skin to make a tent, insert needle at slight downward angle just to avoid going through other side. slowly push plunger. remove. Rub or scratch area depending on critter. No need to pull back to check for vein. No alcohol.
IM - Find muscle area in shoulder. Thump with fist. Insert needle. Pull back to make sure no vein was hit. push plunger slowly. remove. Rub area....a little on horse, a lot on goats. No alcohol.
Never use same needle on another animal. Purchase vaccines from a trustworthy source that it is kept refrigerated. Always keep live vaccines refrigerated.

[ErinP]

Originally Posted by sheepish

No one has mentioned changing needles. We use a new needle for each animal to avoid passing blood born diseases from one to another. This is pretty cheap protection.

Not if you're doing a few hundred at a time!
We change out needles every ten or so calves/cows, as recommended.
Live vax is kept on ice, in a cooler, until it goes in the vax gun. Anytime the vax gun isn't in use for a few minutes, it also goes in the cooler.

IM is always in the triangle area of the neck.
When we brand/give calves their first shots, I'm usually giving a subQ shot, though, so I prefer to give it in the armpit (? I don't know what I'd call that area on a bovine. lol)
Partly because we're usually giving two or three shots at a time and they're already getting one or two in the neck. Also because it's easier to "tent" the skin (another recommended procedure) and because it seems to let the calf work it out of the area when they start running again.

We usually vax 500-1000 calves, twice a year, as well as their mamas.

[sheepish]

Originally Posted by ErinP

Not if you're doing a few hundred at a time!

We change needles every animal, no matter whether we are vaccinating a couple, or the whole flock, which is about 200 right now. Having a strict health protocol has paid off in not passing diseases from one to another and in being able to sell animals at a premium because they are guaranteed disease free.

[Ronney]

I'm with Erin on this one. I don't change needles for every animal either and I don't know anybody personally that does. Having worked on large stations where vaccinating 5,000 lambs would not be out of the way, changing the needle for every one of them would border on the ridiculous. The job would never get done and although needles are relatively cheap, 5,000 of them become expensive. And that's only the sheep. Nor do I clean the drench gun between sheep and there is more likelihood of disease being carried from one animal to another through saliva than there is through blood.

The exception is giving AB's to sick animals in which case the needle is discarded after use on that animal.

Cheers,
Ronnie