am I losing my hill?

[digApony]

In order to make this clear, this will be long. And I don't know if you are able to help me, but I am very concerned.

As you may already know, we had historical flooding in parts of Middle TN last weekend.

My house sits on a hill, about two hundred feet from a hollow, drain, wash, or whatever you may call it. It is not a creek, but it does have small underground springs in areas. These springs are most likely exposed from the water cutting the surface of the hollow.

In addition to this hollow east of my home, there is a hollow to the west of me, on my neighbors property that is just a little further away from my home.

Both Saturday and Sunday, I had water in this east hollow approximately 40 feet wide with an approximate depth of 5 feet or more. I would not get close enough to investigate further because of the danger.

Sunday afternoon when the water was at it's peak, I'm guessing from observation, I felt my house move 4 times in a span of about 20 minutes. It came from the ground while I was standing on the same side, east side, of my hollow. There was no thunder in the area at that time and it was not raining.

I felt it three times in my kitchen and once more while I was sitting on the east side of my back porch.

Monday afternoon I walked the length of the hollow to check for mudslides and to survey the damage if any.

About 300 feet off of the east side of my house there is a "cliff" that my children always liked to climb when they were young. At this time the cliff was about 12 feet high, curved from the cutting of the water run. I do not know the grade of the hill, but it is one of the more steep areas.

I noticed that this cliff was much shorter, about 4 feet and a chunk of clay had fallen that was about five feet in diameter. I noticed the difference in height and wanted to investigate further. My dog was with me and when I started over there she went ahead of me in the same direction.

The next thing I knew she was sinking fast in mud. I pulled her out by her collar and I too worried if I was going to sink as I was already up to my knees.

After that I stood as close as I could and looked at the area. The mud did not appear to be topsoil or mud that had been pushed up by the water. It came from under the hill as if it had been shot out by a big pump. It was whiter in color, (we have a lot of lime) and very soft and wet and mounded.

The mud/sink hole was approximately 12 feet ahead of the cliff and the mud seemed to slide down toward and under the cliff. There was no sagging in any part of that hill or any hill on my land, nor in the area on top of my hill. There was no topsoil wash, run off or build-up. I live in the woods and I am assuming the tree roots and undergrowth held the topsoil.

Putting that all together with the house movement I became concerned and called our county UT Extension Service Agent. He felt that it was important that I have it looked at by the state EPA and Conservation people.

I tried to get ahold of them, but they are so busy with Nashville under 10 feet of water or more, I could not get through.

Last evening my son went down to look riding his 4 wheeler. He too noticed the "sink hole" and the loss of the cliff height. I looked again this morning and nothing has changed, but I am wondering if the water wash is under cutting this hill and slipping the mud out from underneath it. And if the rumbling of my house is related, I think it is something I need to pay attention to.

But until I can have someone that knows to look at it, I don't know if it is undercutting or if it is an underground spring running across my hill and releasing pressure at that area.

I am hoping it is not the latter, because I don't know what I could possibly do about that. If it is undercutting, I can possibly build a wall to divert the water away from the hill or build up the bottom of the hill with several truck loads of 10 or more inch rock.

However, being that it is a sink hole with a depth I do not know, but I am thinking 6 feet or more, gauging from the loss of cliff height. I am wondering how I could put in a foundation for either a breakwall or rock. Using the rock I could build a foundation of sand and gravel first and then graduate the size of the rock... ugh there goes the money!

I can show you a picture, but you can't really tell anything from it unless you've seen the "before".

I don't expect you to give me concrete answers. I'm just wondering if anyone had any experience with this before and a guess at what might be happening.

Thanks for your time... I know it's long. I am waiting for the disaster to subside in Nashville and still insisting that the state look at it. But I would like to sleep a little easier at night!

digApony

[TheMartianChick]

I'm no expert, but it sounds as though this might be dangerous and that you might need to evacuate from your home until an expert can inspect it. Is there more rain in your forecast? More rain could make it even worse.

[MN Gardener]

Are there any cracks in your walls or signs of your house falling? If so, I think I would call my insurance agent along with the conservation office. Sounds kind of scary.

[digApony]

Originally Posted by TheMartianChick

I'm no expert, but it sounds as though this might be dangerous and that you might need to evacuate from your home until an expert can inspect it. Is there more rain in your forecast? More rain could make it even worse.

There is a 20% chance over the weekend. I go back and forth on evacuating, but I have no place to go. I don't know what to do. I'm still trying to get through to the state and I check the hill every night and morning to see if there is any evidence of further movement. But everything is the same and drying.

Ugh... it's frustrating. Moreover, I am afraid that if I do get ahold of the state that they'll send out one of their water boys because they are so busy.

Thank you very much for your help.

digApony

[digApony]

Originally Posted by MN Gardener

Are there any cracks in your walls or signs of your house falling? If so, I think I would call my insurance agent along with the conservation office. Sounds kind of scary.

No, there are no cracks in the walls or in the crawl space walls. I crawled under there with a flashlight and looked at that best I could.

I did think of calling my insurance agent. Maybe in leiu of a costly insurance claim, he can find an expert for me. I am in no way an expert on this, but the movement felt deep under the ground; like an earthquake tremor, but not as forceful. Just a movement... rumble... shift.

I'll do that right now.

Thanks.

digApony

[wyld thang]

All I can say is since you felt your house jerk that's pretty close movement. I knwo there is something called liquifaction where basically it's like coffee diarrhea(sorry, best analogy I could come up with), and it's dangerous, plain and simple. There are mudslides out here and it's lucky when you get a warning. Without seeing pix or knowing the slope or the makeup of the ground(rock, sediment), etc, I think it would be safe to go stay somewhere for a few days? Seriously people lose their homes and worse lives out here from that liquifaction stuff. It's good you have trees and vegetation, helps a little, but even so mudslides occur "naturally". I hope it all comes out well for you!

Also have to say that when houses move in mudslides here people are SOL on stopping it. I hate to be so depressing, but mudslides and collasping land is NOTHING to mess with!

[digApony]

Originally Posted by wyld thang

All I can say is since you felt your house jerk that's pretty close movement. I knwo there is something called liquifaction where basically it's like coffee diarrhea(sorry, best analogy I could come up with), and it's dangerous, plain and simple. There are mudslides out here and it's lucky when you get a warning. Without seeing pix or knowing the slope or the makeup of the ground(rock, sediment), etc, I think it would be safe to go stay somewhere for a few days? Seriously people lose their homes and worse lives out here from that liquifaction stuff. It's good you have trees and vegetation, helps a little, but even so mudslides occur "naturally". I hope it all comes out well for you!

Also have to say that when houses move in mudslides here people are SOL on stopping it. I hate to be so depressing, but mudslides and collasping land is NOTHING to mess with!

Oh ya, I am concerned and scared. And yes, it did look like diarrhea. Only it is whiter like coffee with cream, I'm guessing from the lime in the soil. It appeared to come from under the hill.
I just called my insurance company and the agent is going to call me back.
Maybe, I'll be covered on a room...haha. I doubt it. I am sure this situation can easily be tied to the flood in which flood insurance is something I don't have. Ugh. I just need an expert to look at it. What a mess.

Thanks for the advice.

digApony

[wyld thang]

sorry by coffee diarea I meant how "some people" have to run to the bathroom after they drink coffee--instant liquifaction but yeah, it's something to do with how much saturation and how fast it's being saturated, the mud goes poof like a blowout, not much warning. Soil can "process" water at a certain rate, but extremes obviously cause problems.

It's what happend when St Helens blew, the heated ash melted snow which "instantly" super-saturated soil and poof instant diarea deadly mud flow.

I'd better shut up now.

[digApony]

Originally Posted by wyld thang

sorry by coffee diarea I meant how "some people" have to run to the bathroom after they drink coffee--instant liquifaction but yeah, it's something to do with how much saturation and how fast it's being saturated, the mud goes poof like a blowout, not much warning. Soil can "process" water at a certain rate, but extremes obviously cause problems.

It's what happend when St Helens blew, the heated ash melted snow which "instantly" super-saturated soil and poof instant diarea deadly mud flow.

I'd better shut up now.

No, don't shut up. The mud is very soft and watery... like diarreha too. Good analogy.

And yes it does look like a blow out, and the extension agent did tell me that the water had to go somewhere. It's not a huge blow out. I would have not thought twice about it, if it weren't for the rumbling. There were mudslides further north from me, but were along a large river.

I did some research on the Internet for indications of a mudslide, and I got some good information. But like I said, outside of this little "sink hole" I see no sagging land, tilting trees, etc.

I'm going down there again tonight when I get home. I want to see if the mud is drying or maybe still leaking.

meanwhile... y'all are my experts!

Thank you. And remember, I logged............. hmmmmmm still have a lot of trees though. But the ground was disturbed.

digApony

[edcopp]

Perhaps your hill is relocating. Keep your "Bug Out Bag" ready.

That said, read your insurance policy before you ask your agent what it says. You may not be covered at all for this sort of thing. Read and be sure.

Now for the alphabet soup agencies like EPA, and EMA. Make all the noise that you can and do not expect much. As you have already experienced the agencies are good at passing you on to another agency, and on and on.

It is very likely that you are in an emergency situation that may require some form of federal aid. Please do not get in a hurry, government moves very slowly. Eventually you may need some serious help financially. Usually this sort of thing comes out fairly well money wise, but it takes a long time.

Be prepared to complain to your congressman, etc. The wheel that squeaks gets the oil. Start off right away with your local sheriff's office, and the Emergency Management, Association. Get on record, create a paper trail so that they can find you with the grant money when they eventually print it up.

In the meantime, be safe. Do not take chances if your house is moving around on you, get out. Stay alive, and stay safe.

[fishhead]

If the distances aren't too great one way to check for movement could be to attach strings to different objects or stakes driven into the ground but that may not practical.

Good luck!

[Curtis B]

Ok, here is an oddball thought, if you have any sort of caves around, or an underground stream, aquifer, or anything like that. It is possible that the shear pressure from the extreme flooding has filled a void, or expanded the amount of water under your hill, and in a sense "lifted" your "hill", and house. I have seen it before, but not on such an extreme case such as yours. I would be worried either way, and keep a watch for any movement anywhere as the water level drops, in the instances I have seen, that is when the real trouble happened.

[digApony]

Thank you. I will stay on top of it. But I do have concerns about how things will go for me. Our county, being a small and rural county was almost completely ignored throughout this entire disaster. I under stand that there are a lot more people in much worse situations as I, but maybe not.

I WILL have to bark loud and long to get anyone to listen. I have called every county official in the book. Actually the extension agent was the most concerned and helpful. Also, my county was not declared a disaster area by the state or the federal government. I doubt there is any thing available or hard pressed to get.

I am thinking of calling one of the hippy engineers from the eco-village... Although it will cost me I'll probably get futher and better information.

Thanks... I'll do my best to stay safe and that's why I posted.

[digApony]

Originally Posted by fishhead

If the distances aren't too great one way to check for movement could be to attach strings to different objects or stakes driven into the ground but that may not practical.

Good luck!

No that's a great idea! I can do that. Obviously, the ground or the trees aren't giving any indication, but there is something definitely going down.

I'll think of some way to do that this weekend.

Thanks! digApony

[MattPA]

My guess is that you had better have flood insurance. It sounds to me as a spelunker that you may have a limestone cave under the hill and that the force of the water is increasing the size and therefore the hill is becoming unstable. It is actually possible that the whole hill including the house could and this is only a possibility be swallowed up by a cave in. I would greatly suggest you get out and have it surveyed before returning. Your life could be at risk. A sinkhole in Chile swallowed several city blocks in an instant.

[MattPA]

This is serious and if your cliff went from being 12 feet high to now only being 4 feet high it makes you wonder if the hill hadn't already sunk. The milky color is the minerals and/or lime.

[Harry Chickpea]

In your situation, I would be renting a storage room close by and getting any friends and neighbors to move everything practical out of the house for safekeeping, ASAP! Like - RIGHT NOW! I would also be moving all valuables, tax records, important papers and photo albums into my car and parking the car where I felt it was not going to be in any danger. If you are lucky, you might be able to rent a truck or trailer, but I have a feeling those are already rented by other people.

I would then stay in a room or somewhere away from the house for the next few days. You are describing underground scouring and movement.

[digApony]

Originally Posted by Curtis B

Ok, here is an oddball thought, if you have any sort of caves around, or an underground stream, aquifer, or anything like that. It is possible that the shear pressure from the extreme flooding has filled a void, or expanded the amount of water under your hill, and in a sense "lifted" your "hill", and house. I have seen it before, but not on such an extreme case such as yours. I would be worried either way, and keep a watch for any movement anywhere as the water level drops, in the instances I have seen, that is when the real trouble happened.

I do have underground springs in areas in the hollow. They pretty much dry up in August though.

And I don't know if this is relative, but when my well was drilled and when the drill hit the water, it shot off like a geiser. And shot off for a long time, before we could get close and finish. I've never seen that before, but I did think about it the other day. And this blowout is in a direct line with the well, and the well would be 400 to 500 feet west of the blowout.. I'm guessing the distance.

digApony thanks.

[digApony]

Originally Posted by Harry Chickpea

You are describing underground scouring and movement.

What is that??????

[digApony]

YES TONS OF LIME IN THE WELL WHEN IT WENT OFF!!!! I also live in an area where there are a lot of phosphate deposits, but no mines near me.... er' closest 10-15 miles nw of me.