goats and cows - trying to figure cost...

[JWK]

One of the big "planning issues" my wife and I discuss is the one regarding a cow vs. goats for dairy. Let me say first that I think they are so different that "better" does not exist. We're just trying to figure out what would work best for us. I'm asking for info and advice regarding the following:

1. Feed. My thought is that a Dexter can be raised solely on good pasture and quality hay through the winter. So, no reliance on buying feed. From what I have read, this is not true with goats. This would be a big factor for me. If I have enough pasture and can grow enough hay...

2. Fencing. My understanding is that Dexters would be easy to fence in compared to goats. I also would not have enough money to fence in goats over large areas, change paddocks, etc. I'm assuming a handful of dairy goats for the small homesteader are usually in a designated area and fed purchased feed. True? Is there any way to properly feed goats without resorting to buying feed?

These seem to be the two biggest issues for our decision making right now. I like the idea of having Nigerians for the ability to breed, handle and manage easily. One Dexter is a pretty big financial commitment, will take time to get to milking and everything is relying on that one animal. OTOH, I will get beef. Mmmmmm, beef...

Overall and long term vet bills and other misc. expenses...well, I'm totally clueless. Would like some info on that. I know a lot of people here have had both, some still do. It would be helpful to get your input.

If I had to buy hay and feed for either, it would be a no-brainer for us. Goats would be easier to manage. In short and with what little I know (and I emphasize *little*), Dexters seem to have the advantage when it comes to self sufficiency.

Thanks for any help/info.

[Patt]

The big factor with any cow is getting it bred. We have had Dexters and Highlands and we have also had several breeds of dairy goats. They both have upsides and downsides.

The cow will be lower maintenance for most of the year no doubt about it. So long as you have plenty of good grass you won't have to suppliment with much if any feed. You will need at least a small amount while milking though just to keep the cow happy. Breeding a smaller type cow like a Dexter requires you to either have a local small breed bull or someone who does AI. A lot of farmers don't like sharing out their bulls though due to disease. If you want a decent quantity of milk you also have to find a Dexter from a dairy line and they can be pretty pricey.

Goats do fine on a good mixed pasture. They need a good mineral (so do cows) and they will need supplimental feed while milking same as the cow. The downside to goats is that they are very creative at getting out of fences. Cows will get out too but they don't do it just for the entertainment value like goats do.

Vet costs have been the same for goats and cows for us. Keep them healthy and you won't have a lot of expenses beyond yearly vaccinations.

Another thing to look at is which offspring would you prefer? Will you be eating the calves or kids? Will you be selling them? Goats reproduce like rabbits almost and you can get overwhelmed with babies if you don't either have a good place for selling them or you aren't putting them in your freezer.

What sort of fence do you currently have? Do you have any brush or a lot of weeds in your pasture? Do you have a local Dexter breeder who will loan you a bull or let you bring your cow back for breeding?

In the end to a certain degree it will come down to which you like better. I like cows way better than goats personality wise. You may love goats, everybody is different!

[Patt]

I looked back over your post and just to address your specific question on feeding and fencing goats: ours were never kept in a small area and fed feed. If you get goats I would definitely look at portable electric fence. They need shelter from rain and weather and predators more than cows do so you can keep them in a sheltered area at night and then lead them to a portable pen for grazing for the day.

[Timberline]

I have both and there are things about each that I prefer and things I don't like, too.

I raised and milked Dexters and Dexter x Jerseys for 12 years and currently have Dexter x Herefords and a Jersey heifer. I have only had goats for about 3 years. I am phasing out the goats as soon as my Jersey heifer freshens. Right now the goats are my only milk supply.

These are just my experiences, everyone has their own likes and dislikes and different setups that work better for different animals. Me, I like my goats, but I LOVE my cows (but come from a cattle ranching family, so I'm biased ).

Here is how my experiences with each works out:
Goat Pros:
Easier to handle
Require much less feed
Much less investment
Quicker return on investment (goats kidding before heifer old enough to breed)
Less risk (compare losing a $200 goat to a $1500 cow)
Very easy to train to milk, and can't hurt a person the way a cow can

Goat Cons:
They seem more delicate than cows (I have as many vet calls for goats in 3 years, than in 12 years for cows. Part of this is my longer experience with cows, I know more about treating them)
Need a cream separator for butter, etc.
Milk picks up an off taste easier if not cooled immediately, etc.
They scream all day if they don't like the pasture, the weather, the hay, etc.
I absolutely hate the stink of a buck in rut (or do AI and no buck)
No market here for goat kids, while there is always high demand for calves.
Finding a vet that really knows goats is not easy sometimes.
My goats are very picky and waste a lot of hay, no matter what kind of feeder I put it in.

Cow Pros:
Easier to fence in
Much better market for calves (I have trouble just giving goat kids away)
All my milk from one animal (I save a lot of time by only milking one)
Have a better chance against predators (I have to lock my goats in the barn at night, they hate it)
Beef from calves (I don't care for goat meat)
Cream rises readily, just skim it off
Waste very little feed, they eat everything I put in front of them

Cow cons:
Large animal to train (easy if you can start her as a calf or find one already trained)
Harder on fences and equipment
Very messy poo in the stanchion if she's upset (little goat berries much easier to clean up)
Require more feed and water (this can be a big deal if you must carry water for them in the winter)
Bulls require good fencing and can be dangerous (or use AI and no worries about bulls)
You really should have a good squeeze chute it you're going to have cows. I know of people who don't, but it's so much easier to have a vet work on them (and safer for everyone involved, including the cow, if you have a squeeze chute to restrain her.

[hippygirl]

Hmmmmm...will be watching this thread.

[chewie]

you've gotten top notch advice. i will only add my own thoughts, but those other posts pretty well said it all.

for me, i would've gotten a cow but the cost of one cow was staggering! i got all my goats for less than half. some of my thinking was....if i have a goat go off feed, get sick, mastitis, etc., i have others to still give me milk. if you one and only dairy cow goes off, well, no more milk for you! also, when your cow is on her dry time, what do you do for milk then? i have a goat in milk all year round. sometimes its down to little amts. but i still have milk.

i am curious of why a dexter? i looked into those but they were so expensive. if i were to get a cow again, i'd look for a jersey. i could then use one of our beef bulls, or hubby could AI her, a jersey has enough size for that. (we raise angus)

i miss my cow's milk for butter and whipping cream. i like the goat meat, but DH wasn't wild about it. (he may just hve to learn to like it!) and in using the jersey as i mentioned, i would have plenty of beef without much cost from us.

to keep a cow tho., on our property, not so good. we have only 16 acres, we have horses, and those get all the pasture. our horses would run a cow to exhaustion, so i couldn't leave her out with them. i can keep more goats than i even need on a tiny space compared to the cow's needs. the goat berries just blow away, i'd be doing alot of clean up after the cow. and, to haul a cow, you need a pickup and trailer, to haul the goat, i need a tarp in the backseat of my little 'farm car'.

i do feed hay year round, but its such a small amt., it is very little cost for what i get out of it. goat milk freezes really well too, i don't care for thawed cow milk. for the hay the goats refuse, i feed some to my buck and the rest the horses are happy to clean up, or i can use for bedding, saving another cost.

as a mid 40's woman, goats are so much easier to handle. that is a HUGE issue for me. i also can have my young teen daughters work with them without my husband having to stop and help us. goats are livestock that i can manage pretty well by myself and i love that.

we do have a good meat market nearby, which helps, and not many ppl around me have milkers, so to sell, that's great, but if i need to buy, i have a hard time finding good stock. lucky for me, with only a small family and homestead, a few is enough.

as for vets, nope, they dont' know much. but i've learned alot online, and now i feel i am getting things figured out and its going smooth. if i had the cow, we wouldn't need a vet anyhow, DH knows so much that a vet is seldom used.

i think its just something you will have to figure out a personal preference for. both cow and goat have great potential for a homestead. i'd even thought to have the small jersey and a couple goats for when the cow is dry, but that was too much, one type of milking animal was enough. and the equip. is so small, so easy to handle! carry a water bucket for a cow, and my arms ache. for the goats, its nothing.

[Timberline]

Another thing I thought of, in Colorado and other states that require brand inspections, it does not apply to goats (in CO, anyway). So, it's an added expense when selling a cow or calf (not much about $20 here, but it adds up).

For goats you have to be concerned with scrapie laws (which I'm not).

If you are above 6000' elevation, it is good to be familiar with brisket disease in cattle and know the symptoms to look for.

For goats, it's helpful to know about certain disease like CAE and CL.

[Slugmar]

I just recently traded some work for an older Holstein looking cow and calf and I currently own 25 Boer goats. I raise my animals more for meat but the cow does have the potential to be milked in the future as we are taming her down.

Feeding: They both get the same food I rotate the goats onto different pasture about every 30 days to help keep the parasites under control. I also feed some dry hay to both animals especially the goats since fresh green pasture sometimes give them the runs. The goats and cow are both trained to a bucket and once I holler boss or kids and they see me holding there bucket up they come running.

Fencing: Yes it is true that some goats are hell on fencing they don’t stay around my place long but they do help me determine areas in the fence that need to be fixed the same can be said for some cows though they could be hell on fence. Just last year we rented 20 acres out to a cattle rancher and his cows tore up a lot of fence.

Market: In my area (Northern California) I have a good ethnic market so I can sell a lot of goat for meat plus 3 to 4 auction yards close by and depending on the time of year I can get 100 to 150 dollars per 100lb goat. I also sell goats for 4H and FFA market animals, other breeders and to individuals just looking for goats to have in the yard. I also rent the goats out for brush control and black berry removal. I do find customers for my extra steers we use to have but they do seem to be harder to fine right now due to the amount a steer will cost ready to butcher out.

Care: The cow I have no extra care in she is defiantly more hardier then the goats which I have to clean a pin with takes about 4 hours a month and trim hooves and give medication takes me an extra 6 hours a month

Anther cost on a cow I have to have some one come out and butcher my extra steer which is anther cost the goats I can do all by myself at home which is just more time.

Safety cows are big and dangerous not knowing there own strength they can hurt you or kill you also. Goats can be just as bad even though my 1 year old will go in the pen with the goats and even the bucks I have to watch out for them lifting there heads up rapidly and hitting him in the face with there horns I have seen this happen to adults also so there is a potential hazard with goats also.

I personally enjoy the goats more then the cows just because of there personality the cow doesn’t really want anything to do with us unless we have feed the goats are more curious, heck I even have one that will come in the shop and lay down by the fire during the winter months.

Like every one else its going to be a personal choice on what’s the best fit you and your location but I would recommended maybe getting out and visiting some places that have goats and cows to see which one you might enjoy more.

[texican]

You may be able to raise a cow on good pasture and hay (I'd recommend a mineral supplement). You can raise a goat on 'bad pasture' (shrub/browse) and hay. So it's a wash.

What I'd like to know from Dexter fans, do you (can you) milk them on the milk stand without feeding them something?

Every goat and cow I've ever milked balked at just standing there getting milked, unless they were fed something (alfalfa... grain...). If these cows are don't require feeding while milking, I might have to get one or six!

For me, the main difference between goats and cows is quantity of milk per pound of body weight and fences. If you need lots of milk, get cows. If you need smaller amounts, get a goat. If you have no fences to start with, build a net wire fence... it'll cost a little more up front, but you'll be golden with whatever future critters you get, including hogs.

[Patt]

My Dexters required feed. Unless there is a new milking line that doesn't I haven't heard of any milk animals that didn't need a bucket of something to stand still either.

[MullersLaneFarm]

We chose a Jersey over goats and we never regretted the decision.

Our Jersey cow only required good alfalfa hay in the winter and pasture in the summer. Plenty of water and mineral block. She got a small coffee can of corn/oats in her stanchion at milking time.

We would buy an unrelated jersey bull calf to breed her with, then he was banded and went in the freezer about 6 months later.

We don't have a milk cow now but are often tempted ...

[Timberline]

Originally Posted by texican

What I'd like to know from Dexter fans, do you (can you) milk them on the milk stand without feeding them something?

I never tried this with either cows or goats, but I would think it would just be a matter of training. I always looked at the grain is sort of a tradeoff, "I give you grain, you give me milk." It would be interesting to try.

[Whisperwindkat]

We went through this same decision making process a while ago and we decided to go with goats. Here is why. Our pasture was not the best and certainly would not have sustained a cow year round. So that would mean a bigger hay bill in winter and certainly a good sized feed bill for a cow in milk. Typically a cow only has one calf and it is typically 18 months from birth to freezer for that calf. A cow's gestation period is 11 months so that would mean we would be waiting over 2 years to be able to put one animal in the freezer. So unless we had more than one cow, beef in the freezer would be a luxury treat that we waited on for a long time. An 18 month old calf would be difficult for us to home butcher if we ever needed to. With all the overgrowth in the pastures and rotational browsing we have plenty for our goats to eat mostly year round and the pastures can be worked on and brought back into good condition. Gestation for a goat is 5 months and we typically put kids in the freezer at 5 months. That meant meat in the freezer every year from the goats. Goats are smaller and easier to handle and I don't feel uncomfortable when my 3 year old wants to come in the barn at feeding time. So for us these were the main deciding factors. We figured we had more browse for goats than we did for cows and therefore our feed bill would be smaller. They would also be safer for my children to be around. I don't mind keeping my buck, but would not have wanted to keep a bull. My three year old is notorious for scooting through fences when my back is turned. Another thing that I thought about is would I really be able to use all that milk each and every day? We went with goats and chose Nubians because of their high butterfat content. We make butter, cheese, yogurt, sour cream, ice cream all without a cream seperator. It is a little more difficult to get enough cream for butter by waiting for some cream to seperate and then saving it in the freezer til we have enough, but we keep a steady supply of butter going. That is one thing that we do supplement from the store, but if it were in short supply could use less of and meet our needs. We like goat meat, but since we have eaten more venison over the years than beef it really wasn't a change for us since it is very similar in taste and texture. It wound up being much cheaper for us to keep a small herd of goats than one cow. I figure that I spend less to keep my herd of 8 goats than I would have spent on a cow to keep year round. Then the cost goes down if I have plenty of bucklings one year and only a couple of doelings then the doelings are sold, further reducing the feed bill. If I have a lot of doelings then they go in the freezer also. I think it depends on your situation as to what fits your farm best and could you meet the requirements of the stock long term. Blessings from the farm.

[Callieslamb]

I have a heifer-soon-to-be cow. I have pasture and hay, but no brush or scrub. The difference in the price of fencing for goats to cows will pay for the cow. I just fenced in 3 acres for $400 - all new T posts and elec. wire - one strand will keep mine in, but I used 2 this time and 3 in some places. I already had the charger though. Fencing in that much for goats? I don't have to worry about protecting my cow from dogs or coyotes.

DH won't even try to drink goats milk or eat Chevron. I want to make hard cheeses. A cow fits what we need more than a goat.

Feeding: it depends on what you have. Hopefully, I won't have to buy hay this year other than a few bales of alfalfa if I chose to up milk production or my cow gets out of condition during winter. I do feed grain - it keeps the animals friendly and I hope balances out any nutrition lacking in their graze. A cow takes WAY more pasture and feed than a goat - no getting around that. I like cows. I wouldn't go dexter - you pay way more than you need to for milk that way.

[JWK]

We really appreciate the extremely informative responses! There is a lot more to look into, but I have more direction now. Thanks to all.

[Bret4207]

A cow is easier to keep than goats. But a goat is far less expensive to buy and doctor and will never give near the quantity of even a poor cow. Some folks just don't like goats or cows, take your pick. A goat will never put you on the ground from a kick and a cow will never eat your wifes roses. Local farmers and residents will be less inclined to call you a "hippy" if you have a cow, if that matters, and it's far easier to find a cow vet than a goat vet. You'd think they had the knowledge after all those years in school, but...

6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

[ozark_jewels]

Originally Posted by Chalk Creek

I never tried this with either cows or goats, but I would think it would just be a matter of training. I always looked at the grain is sort of a tradeoff, "I give you grain, you give me milk." It would be interesting to try.

I worked at two dairies where the cows did not get grain while they were being milked. These dairies had the most well-behaved cows I've ever milked, bar none. Sure you still had the ocaisional brat causing trouble.
But with no incentive to push or shove for more feed, no running out of feed before they were finished milking, the cows just stood and chewed cud until they were let out. They got fed in bunks after milking and they knew they had to stand to be milked before they could leave the barn to eat. Less mess in the barn too(no feed going in one end, much less manure coming out the other), less spilled grain, and less rodent problems with no grain in the attic.
We are still slowly changing things around here, but that is one change I intend to make sooner or later. One of these days, I will have a set-up so I do not need to feed in the dairy barn.

[FoghornLeghorn]

A cow's gestation period is 11 months

No it's not, average gestation for a cow is about 9 months.

As for us, we have some beef cattle now (cow/calf) but are looking to get out of that and into goats. Our plan is that we would like to buy 4 beef calves in the spring and then butcher the next spring and that way still have our beef. The goats we would breed. We aren't really set up for cows and it's sometimes dangerous especially with a massive bull. That's why we want to get into goats. They're much easier to handle.

[JWK]

Originally Posted by FoghornLeghorn

No it's not, average gestation for a cow is about 9 months.

As for us, we have some beef cattle now (cow/calf) but are looking to get out of that and into goats. Our plan is that we would like to buy 4 beef calves in the spring and then butcher the next spring and that way still have our beef. The goats we would breed. We aren't really set up for cows and it's sometimes dangerous especially with a massive bull. That's why we want to get into goats. They're much easier to handle.

Yes, I never planned on messing with a bull for only one Dexter. AI would be the way to go, but then I see it would cost somewhere between $150 - $175 for the straws and AI tech. I don't know if that's cost effective when I can feed one buck for a year for less than that. Then there's the beef...

[Cyngbaeld]

I feed each of my dairy does 2 cups of grain a day on the milkstand. All the rest of their food grows here with no input from me. Mine freerange and are fenced out of the poultry yard and garden. Something grows here year round so I've never had to buy hay for them.