Help! How to get Logger $?

[Navotifarm]

In order to get the $ to pay my land taxes, I entered into agreement with a logger last fall (November) that he was to cut all my PINES and if he did a good jobAn cleaned up afterwards etc, we would negotiate about my hardwoods. My understanding is most loggers pay the landowner weekly on a 50/50 basis. Weekly, with the saw mill issuing the checks. My logger chiseled me down to one-third for me and two-thirds for him for the pines for pulp wood plus barter. For doing some logging I specially wanted including daylighting my access road. Six months have gone by without him giving me accounting of how many loads he takes out. Or where. Also he didn't do all the other stff he agreed to do so I sent a certified stop work no trespassing letter. In response he renewed all his promises and broke them. Instead of pines he is cutting and taking out. My hardwood but paying me maybe $100 a load. I have tracked down one mill he is taking my trees to. He cunningly made a deal with them for himself only so they say it's private information as to how much they pay him. I believe the best way I can get my rightful money for my trees is to have the mill pay ME before he gets the money and leaves me with my good trees gone and trash trees and a big mess to clean up. Does anyone on here know how to derail the saw mill payment to ME instead of the logger this frida? Yes, yes, I know you cannot give legal advce but could you tell me how YOU would do it if you wre in my predicament? Please!
This guy can't read bt he is VERY cunning! Thanks for any advice you can offer about dealing with loggers, especially on how to get my money asap!

[Bearfootfarm]

could you tell me how YOU would do it if you wre in my predicament?

If you don't have anything in writing and SIGNED by both parties, there's not a lot you can do about what he's done so far.

DO NOT let him cut any more until you have a SIGNED contract spelling out ALL the terms

[||Downhome||]

umm I suggest you read possum living most importantly the "wining and influencing people" part it has something to do with a lawyer!

just remember you may not only be dealing with him but extended clan and freinds but he sounds like a low life thus far!

you sould be able to get a accounting of what he took from the stumps.

[Navotifarm]

Well, I had a contract with him, written and oral. Obviously, I will have more written with the logger I get to come in after I get rid of this dude. I already got ripped off by the logger so don't want to go the lawyer route. What I want to do is ENFORCE the part of the contract we had dealing with money , the money I need to be paid to me which the mill has been paying the logger.
If somebody did work for me which I did not pay him for, he could get a mechanic's lien and actually force my real estate to sale so he could get his money. I know that I can have a consultingforester (for a fee) do a stump survey. I want something swift and fair like getting the money from the mill which will be issuing a check to him this friday. He is supposed to be gone tomorrow so he is out there working hard loading his trailer right this minute. With logs I doubt I will see the payment for nless I get it from the mill directly. I can't be the only person who has had this problem. How have people smarter than me solved it?? That's what I want to know.

[fantasymaker]

Explain to the mill that you want a full accounting of what he has been paid so that they dont have to be hauled into court as a accessery to theft,,,,which is what he is doing now.
If they havent seen the contract dont show or explain it to them just explain that the loggs are coming from your land.


Truth be told how are you going to prove he took your logs? And that he took them there? e proably has sold both to other place and from other people.

Are your loggs being butt marked on your farm?

[RedTartan]

Why are you still letting him on your land?

[fishhead]

He wouldn't set foot on my land again until everything was squared up to my satisfaction. If he refuses I would take him to court even if it meant paying someone to scale the stumps.

[fatrat]

I agree with RedTartan, "Why are you still letting him on your land?" Are you afraid to tell him to leave? If he is actually taking advantage of you why do not get rid of him now?

If 50/50 is the normal deal then why did you agree to only 1/3? That was your fault. He did nothing wrong there. He can offer you as little as he wants and you can say no if you want. You agreed to it and so you have no right to complain about that.

Also just because it is common that the mill pays the land owner doesn't mean it applies to you in this case. You didn't make that agreement with him or the mill beforehand. You just assumed it and now you want the mill to pay you. I wouldn't pay you either if I was the mill. Look at it from their side. Some logger shows up wanting to sell logs and so they buy them. A while later some guy walks in off the street and says, "where's my money for the logs you bought from that man". They say "who the heck are you and since when did we agree to buy logs from you"? You have no right to any money from the mill.

The only person you might have any claim against is the logger and you made no written agreement that you can prove. How do we know that you even made the verbal agreement that you claim. So far you have made so many assumptions that it is questionable as to what you ever agreed to with the logger.

You say the logger can't read but is very cunning. I'd say he is smart. He made a good deal for himself to buy your logs and sell them to the mill. You have been so assuming and careless in your dealings it is not unlikely that what you have here is a misunderstanding.

You need to do three things, get the logger off your property NOW, leave the mill alone, find a good lawyer. If you don't want to spend the money on a lawyer then get the logger off your property and the next time you agree to sell logs have everything clearly in writing for the logger and the mill. Make sure it is clear as to when trees are cut (so you can be there to keep an eye on things), which trees are cut, how much you are paid, how you are paid and who pays you. MAKE NO ASSUMPTIONS.

[whatrset]

Does your county hasve a state forester stationed there? If so, you may be able to get him to come out and scale the stumps and get an estimate. Also, if you have the 50/50 in writing, you could likely hold him to it with just a lil call to the sherriffs office. If he is stealing from you, he is likely skirting their tax division too. If you verbally agreed to 1/3, but it it isnt in writing, you can play the same game he does. However, if it were me, I'd have an ethical dilemma doing something that I said I wouldnt. I agree with most of the others: Lawyer UP!

[palani]

You need to file a UCC1 form with the Secretary of State placing a landowners lien on anything that the land produces. Some local landowners do that routinely on renters (corn and soybean ground) so that the landowner is first in line for payment. Send a copy of the UCC form to each mill in the area and you will effectively shut down his operation ... no one will want to pay him when you might step in and lien them as well for what they have already paid him for.

[whatrset]

Has he moved his equipment out yet? I had a neighbor that a similar issue occured too, He blocked the road and wouldnt allow the operator to retrieve his machinery until his contractual obligations were met. Became very interesting, as the Logger has to have his machinery working to pay the notes on a multi-million dollar enterprise. THe logger balked for 2 days and brought him a check on day 3. JUST DONT DO ANYTHING STUPID! I knew a logger that had his machinery burned in a dispute like this, and the landowner was assessed 70% of the bill as a result. Just be careful.

[silverbackMP]

Get a Forester in ASAP!!! Even if you have to pay one. He can perform a timber cruise and estimate how much was taken out by the remaining stumpage.

If I were you, I wouldn't sell anymore timber without consulting a Forester.

Check out the Forestry Forum for more research.

SBack

[rambler]

Loggers are kinda known for trying to get as much as they can. It's a time-honored tradition. As the land owner, it's up to you to get things in writing, and supervised enough to see that the contract you agreed to is being lived up to.

It sounds like you were kinda timid & kinda let him do what he wanted.

So, that is what he is doing.

It doesn't make him 'right', but without a good contract & knowing a bit of what you are doing, it doesn't make him 'wrong' either. You kinda let yourself be qalked on.

Always off in that grey area of inbetween....

You need someone local to help you make a good contract with a good logger. State forester can often help if you have such.

What you have now is a mess that needs a lot of attention to clean up & get right.

--->Paul

[texican]

Would you give me your checkbook, with all the checks signed, if I said I'd be real careful? I promise I'll be good, and do just what I say I'll do.

Sorry, but you've been had. You're probably a nice person, and trust people. Doubtful you'll ever see a cent. If you sue, he'll claim bankruptcy. Even if you 'win' the lawyer will get everything.

Figure this is part of your 'continuing education'.

Never trust anyone, when it comes to money... not even relatives.

If you have any trees left to be harvested, now or in the future, make sure you have a semi-legal document typed up, agreed to and signed by both parties, and file it in the courthouse. Then, forget everything else, and sit and watch the loggers, to keep them honest. Keep a daily tally of the loads. Once a week, a check arrives, or the equipment gets impounded, and it doesn't leave. You have to keep a tight rein on loggers.

The price of pine is so low, that no one around here will even cut it... the cost of logging and hauling almost equal what the timber brings. If I literally wanted to give away pulpwood, I couldn't right now. Only 'folks' cutting pulp and corporations who need tax breaks (for selling below cost... works for them, blows for po' folks).

Sorry, but you have little recourse (that will actually pay money, as lawyers will want their money up front). If you could get him back on site, you might confiscate his equipment, but you have to have the 'stones' to back it up...

Good luck.

[edcopp]

But nobody cares.

I want to grab his checks at the mill, so what. I want to stop this crook from stealing from me. I want to have all the problems solved free.

It really does not work that way. At best you will need to hire a lawyer. This will require cash up front for at least some of the expenses, and you say Oh NO I don't want to pay any money to a lawyer. No No NO.

I want free advice right here on the internet. Now, free.

You have gotten some advice that may just get you shot, or at least laughed out of the county. Right here, today for free, and it is probably worth less than that.

Some of the advice that you have read here today requires criminal acts on your part. Can you spell jail.

The time to pay cash for some advice was before the first stick was cut. You mention an agreement. Where is it, and what does it say. What lawyer wrote it up?

If the agreement is not in writing then it is not worth the paper you saved by not writing it.

You are learning a very expensive lesson. Good luck. Next time take a $100 to your lawyer and say here. What do I need to do now?

Oh yes, one more thing I do have considerable experience in a matter like this. It is not cheap to resolve, and generally does require professional help. It also as a rule, takes considerable time to resolve these things.

[wyld thang]

wow, it sounds like you're SOL. AND you waited SIX MONTHS before checking into this??? You should have been supervising what he was cutting and counting loads.

And I know at least in my area you are lucky to get your gas and labor paid for with what you get for trees at the mill. It's the worst time to expect to make any money cutting trees for timber.

I dont' know how you can "prove" any trees came from your property, it's the word of the logger where they came from.

Here we have to get a permit from the state to cut, and also what is cut is recorded with the permit, I think this gets reported by the logger and the mill. Yes, you agree with the logger on the percent(it's not a set thing, we did 60 logger/40 us the first go around, and he was a great guy, did great clean up work and did a neat job and did not charge for delivering equipment cuz he was our neighbor, also was very educational, he also neatly stacked the trash trees and made slash piles). Even with such a great guy we still kept watch to make sure he was cutting the trees that were marked, and counted the loads and what the loads were(fir/oak). We were on hand to answer questions about cutting hangers and stuff. There was a detaile contract beforehand, blah, blah, blah.

Your logger indeed sounds like a shrewd guy and I dont' think you can get any sort of check out of the mill--what records do YOU have of your board feet or proof the trees the guy delivered were yours? the logger brands the tree with HIS stamp. Not to mention not all the tree is usable as lumber, prices differ, sometimes good looking trees are full of rot. I think you got took and all you've got left is to keep the guy off your land. I agree with everything TExican said!!!

[francismilker]

I'm not sure about your particular state's laws but here's what I had to do.........

First and foremost I might say I know that somewhere out there a fair minded logger does exist. In fact, there's probably a lot of them. That being said though, I've yet to meet one. In my neck of the woods logging is not too dominent so the ones we see around here are very mobile and don't hang around that long. I had an oral aggreement with one a few years back to clear all hardwoods with the exception of the walnut trees.

Being young and dumb I let the guy know too much about my personal life and that I traveled for work most of the time. Here's what happened: He showed up as soon as my tail lights cleared the driveway and cut down ONLY the walnuts. He basically took me for several thousand dollars worth of 24"+ straight trunked walnut trees and then moved on to the neighbor's place. When I confronted him (we) decided there must have been a misunderstanding and he agreed to pay market value for the timber. He agreed to pay me as soon as he was paid from the sawmill where he sold the timber. He finished raping my neighbor's place in a couple of days and then packed up and left the area. I finally tracked him down a few counties away after some pretty serious PI work.

I went to the county courthouse where he resided and placed a lein on his logging equipment for the cost of the logs and had a registered letter sent to him letting him know what had taken place. (keep in mind, a lein on his equipment didn't shut him down. It just made it harder for him to give clear title on his skidding equipment if he were to sell it; or so I thought) By the way, I've yet to see a dime from him and that was 15 years ago.

Sadly, I'm with the others. You've been HAD. The only thing you might do is hope with all you're worth that he will bring his equipment back on your place. If and when he does you could call the local law and report theft. When they come out to file the report your problems will become documented.

[Old Vet]

Call the VA Forestry Commision. They may be able to help and it will not cost you anything. You are paying them by taxes so you may get some relief from them.

[texican]

If one person reading this learns by other's mistakes, it'll be a blessing.

It's real hard to steal land... not impossible, but difficult. Someone can't swoop in while you're off to work, and abscond with it.

It's real easy to steal timber, which sometimes IS more valuable than the land. It's especially easy when the landowner makes it easy... they can steal without threat of prosecution... if they're 'caught', they can say they were bring the check over later.

[luv2farm]

Originally Posted by rambler

Loggers are kinda known for trying to get as much as they can. It's a time-honored tradition. As the land owner, it's up to you to get things in writing, and supervised enough to see that the contract you agreed to is being lived up to. -->Paul

Luckily, I have thick skin or this would have offended me. My husband and his family have logged for generations. Only 2 times have we ever been asked to sign a contract---which he willfully did. His word is worth his weight! A hand-shake was his documentation. He has never cheated anybody out of a dime. That being said....he was always very transparent with the land owners. He'd haul a load to the mill, have the mill cut 2 checks (50/50 split), and make a copy of the log tally to give the landowner, so that there was no room to question the money. He has even let Land Owners ride with him to the mill in his truck, and watch as the logs were measured and paid for. Transparency from day one...........breeds trust. His family is known for being "fair".

I am sorry for your loss. I hope you can recoop some of your lost value. I hope you can find a "fair" logger to assist you. Not everybody, with or without a contract, can be trust.........but many can.