Growing plants under lights .

I am considering setting up an indoor plant growing system . I may start with plants in soil & maybe move on to hydroponics or aquaponics . I would like for this to be a year-round system . Tomatoes is one plant I definitely want to grow & would like to experiment with various other vegetables . I would be depending solely on artificial lighting . Does anyone do this or have you in the past ? Heating the area in cold weather isn't a problem , the only real concern for me is lighting . I don't want to invest time & money in this project if I can't grow good healthy productive plants at a reasonable cost .
If you've had good luck growing under lights I'd really like to hear about it . If you've tried & failed I'd like to know why you think you failed . Thanks in advance .

[Maura]

I have grown Mexico Midget tomatoes in a tub, I think there were three in the tub. They were started with artificial light, moved outside to a greenhouse for the summer and into the autumn, then brought into the living room where they were set in front of a south facing window. The following summer they went outside again, then inside for the winter. I sure liked getting those extra tomatoes, but in the middle of winter they really stopped producing. However, we started up again with really big plants.

For optimum growth without legginess, plants do best with 8 hours of light followed by 4 hours of dark. Tomatoes like to have something red under them. My friend uses red cellophane. Make sure your grow lights are close to the plants, raise them as the plants get taller.

[wogglebug]

You can use a lot of electricity on lights, your meter readings can go up, and pretty soon you can find unfriendly men with sledgehammers coming through your doors. That IS one of the things they monitor looking for urban hydroponic drug-growers.

[Mike in Ohio]

I currently have two indoor growing setups for starting seedlings. Each one has two double flourescent fixtures and each fixture has 2 four foot t-12 40 watt bulbs. I use standard bulbs (not grow lights) - with one cool and one "hot" bulb. Remember that flourescents give off more light for a given wattage so I ball park each setup as roughly 300 watts (if they were incandescent).

I can start 4 standard size flats/trays under each setup for a total of 8 trays at a time. For the peppers and tomatoes I am currently using flats with jiffy-7 pellets (72 per). For cukes and squash I am using 35 cell plug trays. For the basil I am using a 200 cell plug tray.

Maintaining proper moisture levels is the greatest issue for me. Too much water and the plants damp off. Too little and they keel over. Not a lot of material in each plug or pellet so I check them twice each day (minimum).

Hope this helps.

Mike

[catahoula]

I use a 1000 watt high pressure sodium light made by Sun Systems, it will completely light up an eight foot by eight foot space as a sole source of light. It has a switchable remote ballast that can run a metal halide bulb as well, it also has a built in timer. It's a very nice system, but pretty expensive.

Two causes of "leggy" plants are light pollution, your plants growing towards a weaker light source when the primary lights are out, and the primary light source being too far from the plants.

If cost is an issue,( when is it not?) you could price full spectrum high output fluorescent lights, the ones I've seen are pretty impressive.

The light source is a big deal, don't go half way with it. My system is about ten years old, Sun Systems has a newer line of even more efficient ballasts out now. You can Google them, FarmTek is also a distributor, they have an excellent assortment of lighting solutions.

As far as cops kicking in your door in the middle of the night, which I'm sure was meant as a joke, they would watch you and your house and gather some evidence before acting. this isn't TV.

[kreig]

We have a 400 watt metal halide lamp which grows things well. It was expensive but we have had it for years without a problem. You can grow tomatoes inside but they need a space that can be alot warmer than you might want to live in. You can solve this by making a small inclosure around them and the light but this will prevent light from getting to other plants. I have made them out of those reflective space blankets. You can also buy a comerical one for $$. Just remember to keep it far enough from the light to prevent risk of fire. You will also need to polinate them which isn't a big deal. Things like lettuce and beans can easily be grown indoors without much fuss. I agree with the other post that having a grow light will not bring the police to your door. Have fun with it. Our biggest problem has been a very determined cat who loves to eat seedlings!

I knew someone might think I wanted to grow pot . Not a chance . I am really interested in aquaponics but was thinking I probably should slowly work my way up to that . I can buy no longer road worthy box trailers at a really good price . I have free gas so cold weather heating won't be a problem . These trailers have no windows so 100% artificial lighting is necessary . The trailers are pretty large & I hoped to provide year-round home grown vegetables for myself & any excess could be sold or given to family .
I have read that good plants can be grown under fluorescent lights such as the long shop light fixtures with the right bulbs in them . What I have pictured in my mind is a trailer that is 8' wide by about 50' long with the fish tanks in the end opposite the doors & grow beds along each side with a walkway down the middle . I'm not really concerned about the original set up cost as long as the plants will do well & it doesn't cost an unreasonable amount monthly for lighting .
I am retired , love fresh vegetables , like fish , interested in aquaponics & have time on my hands . However , if lighting is going to cost me a lot more than the vegetables & fish are worth I'll can the whole idea .

[Maura]

Why don't you start smaller and see what happens. I am amazed by how much we grow in our green house during the winter and it's half the size you are talking about. You could put half the box into plants and fish, the other half into workbench and storage.

Maura , Do you heat your greenhouse in winter & do you use artificial lighting ? Thanks for responding .

[||Downhome||]

if your not concerned with the start up why not just build a green house and use the high intensity discharge (H.I.D) lamps as supplemental lighting.

as far as juice to run the lamps you have free gas modify a generator to run on natural gas.

flouresents work great for certain things, you have a high rate of diminish by that I mean
that at the bulb you may have 2500 lumens ,6 inchs away you have 1250 ,a foot you have 600 then compound that with a canopy shading the lower parts of the plants. so seedlings, smaller high light species, larger low light species.

the hids (metal halide , high pressure sodium) have a much higher intensity and like someone pointed out need to be kept at least 1 to 2 feet from the plants.

what ever lights you use you need to take total lumens and divide by square feet=lpsf, for what you want to do you want 2500-3000 lumens per square foot


I just seen a butt load of 400 watt metal halide for 50 bucks each.

I figure I can build a 16x20 one of these for less then 500 bucks just useing regular 6 mil poly. greenhouse plastic would be more but would offer longer life.

http://userpages.bright.net/~fwo/gre...reenhouse.html

you can always use the twin or triple wall polycarbonate if you concerned on the heat,there also blankets and as in the linke the double poly. if your not concerned
with the heat theres also corrugated polycarbonate panels or fiberglass. light transmission is the biggest factor next to insulating propertys and the no condensate drip protection can be worth it.

[wogglebug]

Originally Posted by WV Hillbilly

I knew someone might think I wanted to grow pot.

Not me - didn't mean to be misunderstood. However, you're right in a way. The cops DO think that, with good reason, when the electricity usage goes up. Doesn't matter how innocent you are for a while if they come in with a no-knock warrant. That warning is what I was trying to convey.

I seriously considered building a greenhouse & may yet . There are several things I'm trying to take into consideration . I want a permanent structure that can be fairly easily heated . Since I would like to grow year-round , lights would be needed regardless . I would prefer to set up as self sustaining system as possible . I don't want to deal with inexpensive plastic covering , shade cloths , ect . I am looking at this as a long term project . Growing plants & keeping new plants coming for replacements , growing fish & breeding fingerlings for replacements , raising earthworms for supplemental fish food , ect. In an aquaponics system the watering would be automatic , in the box trailer it would be a simple matter to hang the lights above the grow beds & the lights would be on timers . I realize I need airflow over the plants & I haven't researched that enough yet to know the best way to do that in an enclosed building . It would be a simple matter to install vent fans .
I'm not progressing too much with other aspects of the system until I feel confident the lighting isn't going to be a deal killer . Lastly , I could always use the box trailer for some other purpose if things don't work out with plants , fish , ect .

[catahoula]

I've been interested in aquaponics myself. The research I've done has led me to believe that an aquaponic system can't provide the nutrients necessary fruiting plants, where the systems really shine is in the production of leafy greens.

With this in mind you may have to set up a hydroponic or areoponic system to produce your fruiting plants and and use the aquaponic system for fish and leafy greens, it's sort of a blessing in that you won't have all your eggs in one basket.

The box trailer sounds like a great idea, you might want to think about painting it white and insulating it, I imagine the sun would make it rocket hot in the summer time, which might kill your fish as well as your plants.

I suppose if you have free natural gas the cost of electricity wouldn't be an issue, you could just run air conditioners, build light traps at both ends and have some large fans to pull in fresh air and keep it circulating.

One last thought, there might be some grant money out there that you could apply for that would help cover the cost of your system.

I think it it could be done, keep us in the loop.

[Hooligan]

Instead of four foot tubes consider using the smaller CFL bulbs. You can use those over the vanity fixtures that have multiple bulb sockets or even better you can make your own fixture using a shop light reflector and inexpensive sockets. You can pack a lot more lumens in a small space this way. They last longer also.

You should be able to fruit tomatos under a setup like this if all other variables are right too. I'm used to seeing ripe fruit in the middle of winter under test lights here at work. They use the T5 four foot bulbs in developing our light gardens.

HID lights work very well but they use a lot more electricity and they produce a lot more heat. Metal Halide is used for vegetative growth and high pressure sodium for fruiting. You can get digital ballasts that will run both types of bulbs. The older mechanical ballasts will only run the type they are rated for although you can get conversion bulbs.

The ideal setup might be a growing setup using CFL's and a fruiting setup using HID.

You can however fruit on the CFL's if you use enough of them.

[Hooligan]

Originally Posted by catahoula

I've been interested in aquaponics myself. The research I've done has led me to believe that an aquaponic system can't provide the nutrients necessary fruiting plants, where the systems really shine is in the production of leafy greens.

This isn't true in my experience. You supply the nutrients in an aquaponic system and can give them anything and everything they need.

I believe the only real advantage that an aquaponic system over plain old dirt is that you don't have to lug all that dirt around. The downside is... if something goes bad you risk losing the entire crop. Dirt is more forgiving.

[blufford]

Here is a really good article on different types of Grow Lights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grow_light

Looks like with a little more research that LEDs might be the future for growers.

My mother has been growing her African Violets for years under Gro-Lux tubes with good results.
Vegetables are a different animal though.

http://www.deadzoom.com/member/blufford/IMG_2091.JPG



http://www.deadzoom.com/member/blufford/IMG_2092.JPG

[naturelover]

Originally Posted by WV Hillbilly

I knew someone might think I wanted to grow pot . Not a chance . I am really interested in aquaponics but was thinking I probably should slowly work my way up to that . I can buy no longer road worthy box trailers at a really good price . I have free gas so cold weather heating won't be a problem . These trailers have no windows so 100% artificial lighting is necessary . The trailers are pretty large & I hoped to provide year-round home grown vegetables for myself & any excess could be sold or given to family .
I have read that good plants can be grown under fluorescent lights such as the long shop light fixtures with the right bulbs in them . What I have pictured in my mind is a trailer that is 8' wide by about 50' long with the fish tanks in the end opposite the doors & grow beds along each side with a walkway down the middle . I'm not really concerned about the original set up cost as long as the plants will do well & it doesn't cost an unreasonable amount monthly for lighting .
I am retired , love fresh vegetables , like fish , interested in aquaponics & have time on my hands . However , if lighting is going to cost me a lot more than the vegetables & fish are worth I'll can the whole idea .

Speaking from experience here, it can be very expensive to grow plants in such a large closed container like that, not only for the lighting equipment but also for the equipment you'll need to counteract sweating, dripping, mould and mildew. Even without the fish you will need to set up reflective material on walls and ceiling, good ventilation, fans, dehumidifiers, lights and electrical equipment that won't be adversely effected by moisture. You might need to install CO2 generators and sulpher burners for the plants because of mould and mildew, plus you will need to spray for spider mites (believe me, they come with the closed territory no matter what kind of plants you have in there). All of that would be deadly for the fish if you had them in there too. Another thing about closed containers with plants is that they attract hordes of mice. If you have a ventilation and drainage system in there the mice WILL find their way in and take up residence in the soil and destroy the plants, so you must set it up so they can't get in there.

If you have only fish and no plants you will still need the ventilation equipment to take care of humidity and mould, plus need to carefully regulate the temperature, and still need some kind of full spectrum lighting in there for the health of the fish.

I'm not trying to dissuade you, because it can be done, just letting you know what you will have to prepare for to make it a success. I'd suggest that if you can get the containers cheap then have one for plants and a seperate one for the fish. Start off only using half of each container and as you become more experienced with the different kinds of difficulties you may encounter and overcome them, you can then expand from there to utilize the full length of each container.

.

[catahoula]

Originally Posted by Hooligan

This isn't true in my experience. You supply the nutrients in an aquaponic system and can give them anything and everything they need.

I believe the only real advantage that an aquaponic system over plain old dirt is that you don't have to lug all that dirt around. The downside is... if something goes bad you risk losing the entire crop. Dirt is more forgiving.

You are confusing aquaponics with hydroponics. An aquaponic system involves fish, the plants filter nutrients from the fish waste in a closed system, no extra nutrients are added.

[catahoula]

I got to thinking about this some more yesterday.

Farm-Tek was giving away high tunnels through a government program. They did a write up about a couple in Wisconsin that developed an aquaponic system that produces hundreds of pounds of lettuce and fish, they run the system in a high tunnel year round and just use supplemental lighting, and heat.

If you have free natural gas, then you pretty much have free energy. A gas furnace and a generator for fans pumps and lights, and you could be supplying your region with organic fish and produce within a year.