Electrical wiring question. Sigh.

cc-rider · #1 04/13/10, 11:16 AM

I have a puzzle for you electricians out there. My whirlpool tub says it has to be on a dedicated 20 amp breaker. The tub is made so that you can add an optional heater inline, but I’m not doing that. Is there a reason it has to be a dedicated line??? I’m trying to map out where my electric needs to go and I hate wasting a circuit/breaker for just one item that may not NEED to be on it’s own. My thoughts are that they say that just in case you have the inline heater. Which I won’t. Can I put it on the breaker with my GFCI above the sink, since I’ll obviously never run the whirlpool AND a hairdryer at the same time??

Any thoughts?

#2 04/13/10, 11:34 AM

May not meet code but I'd say yes . It's very likely there's not much load on that gfci circuit . Of course I have no idea how someone else wired that circuit .

The Paw · #3 04/13/10, 11:36 AM

A breaker is not that expensive. Do it right.

Even if your theory is correct, which I don't know one way or the other, the next owner of the house may add an in-line heater, replace the tub eventually, etc. Why cut a corner on such a simple thing?

east texas · #4 04/13/10, 11:55 AM

should be fine but check mfg on whirlpool and see how many amps it pulls and be sure to check on the amp it pulls on startup if they call for a 20 amp then its probally not pulling over 15 that 75% of the load if you use a hairdryer at the same time it might or might not pop the breaker if it does turn it all off and re set it then dont do that anymore! !

cc-rider · #5 04/13/10, 12:02 PM

Yes, you are correct, a breaker isn't that expensive, but when I only have 30 slots, and I have 30 circuits, I'm trying to figure out how to double-up some unnecessary ones! LOL
I think I've been to cautious with my figuring, but better safe than sorry. It's only a cabin...you wouldn't think it would use so many circuits, would you!!!?

unioncreek · #6 04/13/10, 12:34 PM

I would say you probably need the independent breaker. Check the data plate on it and see how many amps it's pulling.

Bob

The Paw · #7 04/13/10, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cc-rider

Yes, you are correct, a breaker isn't that expensive, but when I only have 30 slots, and I have 30 circuits, I'm trying to figure out how to double-up some unnecessary ones! LOL
I think I've been to cautious with my figuring, but better safe than sorry. It's only a cabin...you wouldn't think it would use so many circuits, would you!!!?

30 does sound like an awful lot. If I recall correctly you can put up to 12 overhead lights and/or general use receptacles on a single circuit.

I have about 1100 square feet, and off the top of my head, I think I have:

2 dedicated kitchen counter circuits
1 dedicated fridge circuit
1 dishwasher
1 double for each of water heater, stove and dryer (total 6 slots)
1 water pressure pump and heat tape
1 septic pump
2 for baseboard heater
either 5 or 6 general purpose circuits, including a plug on the deck.

So that only adds up to 20. You must have a grow-op in your cabin....

foxtrapper · #8 04/13/10, 02:04 PM

You can do as you propose, quite safely. It is a violation of code, as is having a welder on the same 220 circuit as your drier. None the less, both set ups work just fine in a practical and safe sense.

cfabe · #9 04/13/10, 04:17 PM

Code says it needs to be dedicated. You can choose to ignore that if you want. There's lots of stuff in the code that doesn't make sense or might not be necessary for all situations. (Like a range hood with a 60W bulb needing its own circuit) But usually it's best to just follow the code regardless. Once you start making exceptions here and there, soon you've got a building full of violations.

MWnBC · #10 04/13/10, 05:54 PM

If you do not have enough room in the panel,it is typical to add a 6-8 slot sub-panel.
For example: Use 2 slots in the main with a 40 amp breaker and #8-3 cu to feed it.
This is common when dealing with additions,shop,garage or as in this case,no room.
Here you are required to always have 2 free spaces in the main.

Marco

Also wire your whirlpool properly,E and water do not mix.

big rockpile · #11 04/13/10, 06:10 PM

I would say your pump alone pulls a great amout of juice.

big rockpile

Farmerwilly2 · #12 04/13/10, 08:45 PM

As was mentioned, any fixed motor is supposed to be on it's own branch. If you are short of panel space either add a sub panel or replace some of your breakers with 2 pole, 2 throw breakers, essentially two breakers in a single slot.

tyusclan · #13 04/13/10, 09:35 PM

If you have all thirty slots filled you probably do have some lower draw items on breakers that can be combined. Combine those to free up space, and put the tub on a dedicated circuit.

Oldcountryboy · #14 04/13/10, 09:50 PM

Yes you would be in violation of the NEC Code if you don't run a designated circuit to your whirlpool. If your building is still under construction, it would be easier now then later to run that designated circuit. Also, some states are getting real strict when it comes time to sell a house. If during inspection the whirlpool is found to not have a designated circuit, you may have to have it fixed the right way before you can sell it. So it might be better to do it now then later.

#15 04/14/10, 11:20 AM

I can't imagine why you've used enough circuits to wire a very large house to wire a cabin .Sounds to me like you've already wasted quite a bit of money on wiring & breakers . See if you can't get mini-breakers ( two circuits take up one breaker space ) . Is the GFCI in the bathroom that you mentioned the only device on that circuit ?

cc-rider · #16 04/16/10, 10:49 AM

If I remember right, the box can only accommodate so many "mini" breakers. Maybe 10? If that. I'll have to look. That's an option.

"You must have a grow-op in your cabin" LOL. You'd think so, huh??

Here's my list of "dedicated" breakers....tell me if I'm thinking wrong:
Microwave range hood
Whirlpool tub
Electric clothes dryer (takes 2 slots -- 240)
Electric water heater (takes 2 slots -- 240)
Electric range (oven/stove) (takes 2 slots -- 240)
4000 watt space heater/furnace (takes 2 slots -- 240)
4000 watt space heater/furnace (takes 2 slots -- 240)
4000 watt space heater/furnace (takes 2 slots -- 240)
Well pump (takes 2 slots -- 240)
Heater in ceiling light/vent in bathroom
Bathroom GFCI over sink (downstairs)
Bathroom GFCI over sink (upstairs)
Two 500 watts baseboard heaters - 1 in ea. bath. (takes 2 slots - 240) I could put something else on this circuit, but I don't know what since it would have to be 240, correct?

Just those items alone take 20 slots. And that doesn't count any of the lights, outlets, ceiling fans, sump pump, pressure tank, etc.

Can I hook those two GFCI bathroom circuits together? It's just ME in the house. I'll never be using a hairdryer in both at the same time.

Or would that not pass muster?

My "cabin" is between 1500-1700 square foot, not counting the basement. It keeps growing. Sigh. But I really WANTED to add the sunroom (solar, you know!), and the enclosed entry (again...passive solar), and then the upstairs because....well, I might as well do it before I put the roof on!

CC

C_Brice · #17 04/16/10, 11:04 AM

Code states that bathrooms must be on a dedicated 20 amp circuit. You can run multiple baths off of that circuit but nothing else may go it.

There is nothing in the code that states that the whirlpool needs to be dedicated. It's a manufacture requirement and it may effect warrenty. You'll need the amp draw off the pump to know for sure what you can get away with.

They sell what they call "piggy back" circuit breakers. 2 breakers that take up one location. Some panels accept them, others don't and still others aren't rated for their use but they'll fit anyway. Using a couple of them in a panel isn't bad but I don't recommend their wholesale use.

If it were me I'd run a dedicated circuit and receptacle and install a piggy back breaker. Make sure to use GFCI protection.

CB

beaglady · #18 04/16/10, 12:05 PM

C Brice is correct (I just looked it up) The NEC does not require that a whirlpool have a decicated circuit, but it does for bathrooms. If your whirlpool has a cord to plug in, the code requires that it have a GFI receptacle.

cc-rider · #19 04/16/10, 03:01 PM

I will check the amps on the whirlpool (I looked in the book, but it doesn't say, so I'll have to look on the unit). If they are low enough, can I run the GFCI for the whirlpool, and both GFCI's (both bathrooms) on the same 20 amp breaker? In actuality, if I'm in the tub, I won't be using a hairdryer! LOL

So, for both bathrooms total, I'd have:
1 - 20amp with GFCIs for the whirlpool and two sink outlets
1 - 15amp with vanity lights, overhead lights, vent fan, lamp outlet
1 - 20amp with one ceiling heater in vent
1 - 15amp 240 volt to run both baseboard heaters (using 2 breaker slots)

Does this sound correct?

Or do ALL of the breakers for the bathrooms have to be 20 amp?

Macybaby · #20 04/17/10, 07:44 AM

No wonder you have a full box, you have baseboard heat.

We do too, and put in a sub panel for the heating circuits. So we have a 200 amp main panel and a 200 amp sub panel and we are about out of space for a 2000 sq foot home. But we also two range circuits, one 220 outlet in the kitchen and needed a double spot for the second electric meter (we get a discount on our heating circuits).

Even if you decide to gang up things that should not be ganged, I would suggest running separate wires to your box and joining them there so that if in the future you need to put them separate, you are not running new wires for the entire run.

I won't advise if what you are doing will work because I would never advise someone to wire things outside of code. We have dealt with way too may "could have burned the house down" issues that previous owners did. Must have figured it would work for them and they knew the constraints, but they sure were not going to tell the new owners things were not up to code and you couldn't use the outlets like you thought you could.

Cathy