Quantcast
Bad Amish Loggers - Homesteading Today
Homesteading Today

Come enter the Lehman's Aladdin Lamp Giveaway!

Go Back   Homesteading Today > General Homesteading Forums > Homesteading Questions


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
  #1  
Old 04/12/10, 09:55 AM
big rockpile's Avatar
If I need a Shelter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 15,924
Thumbs down Bad Amish Loggers

Couple months ago I talked to a Guy I know about cutting Logs on my place.He just hasn't got around to me.

But the Amish have been doing some Logging in a few places around me and to tell the truth it was scaring me as to what they was distroying.

I tried calling the Guy I had to back out of selling my Logs.But my DS that has worked for him said not to worry he wouldn't tear my place up that the Amish are the worst Loggers to ever come into the area.

Surprised me.

big rockpile

__________________

I love being married.Its so great to find that one person you want to annoy for the rest of your life.



If I need a Shelter
If I need a Friend
I go to the Rock!

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04/12/10, 10:20 AM
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: northcentral MN
Posts: 13,681

Maybe it's that "dominion over nature" thing or maybe the Amish in your area just don't care. My opinion of that religion changed when I heard how they treat their animals.

__________________

"Do you believe in the devil? You know, a supreme evil being dedicated to the temptation, corruption, and destruction of man?" Hobbs
"I'm not sure that man needs the help." Calvin

Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04/12/10, 10:29 AM
Brenda Groth
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 7,647

kinda surprises me too as they are generally known for very good work..

we had pulpers come in and pulp off the aspen on our property and they stole trees and ruined our woods..they weren't amish..but they were jerks

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04/12/10, 10:49 AM
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 7,154

Buying and cutting timber is done for the money. If doing a rough shod job makes the most money, a large number of the people doing it will go for the dollar, especially if doing a good job will be less profitable. That attitude works the same with all humans. To find a good logger, check out his past jobs and the land owners. Looking at his hat won't tell you what you want to know.

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04/12/10, 12:40 PM
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,407

Well, you got yer Pennsylvania Dutch, yer Rotterdam Dutch, yer Amsterdam Dutch. yer ______ Dutch,,,,,,,,

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04/12/10, 12:43 PM
Oggie's Avatar
Waste of bandwidth
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: OK
Posts: 9,999

If I ever start a rock band, I'm stealing this thread title for the name.

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04/12/10, 02:22 PM
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 1,359

"what they were destroying" and what were they ruining? Sure it just isn't the differences in logging?????
Why I ask is because around here loggers use skidders with those super wide/soft tires - you know the type that can run over your feet without causing you any pain.... unless you happen to catch a chained tire.
Where as the Amish do use shod horses that do leave hoof prints and oh yea if'n the horses step on your feet there will be pain - lots and lots of pain.
Skidders lift the logs up so only the back section is dragging the ground. The horses just drag the whole log along the ground, sometimes digging in and leaving a furrow all along.
Something else different is the length of log skidded, Machines will pull out a sizable 20-30 foot log. The horses couldn't move something that size so it would take 2 or more trips to pull out the same log.
Skidders though usually make many straight lanes where as with the horses pulling a shorter log can log the same area using a lot fewer main roads...
But hey, that's the difference(s) least wise around this neck of the woods....

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04/12/10, 03:47 PM
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Southeast Alaska
Posts: 196

what does amish have to do with it

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04/12/10, 04:42 PM
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 11,904

If anybodys in the logging business and wants to work on others properties with horses, theres a impliment called a logging arch that does the same thing, lift up the front end. Makes it easier on the horses, and dosent trough the earth, AND, usually these things are home made.

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04/12/10, 06:05 PM
luvrulz's Avatar  
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 3,177

The ones I know personally are very good land stewards and care implicitly for their animals and their land and their children. Sorry for your luck and the ones you've come into contact with -

__________________

Be a fountain, not a drain!

^()^
http://tubbsfarmstead.com/

Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04/12/10, 06:54 PM
big rockpile's Avatar
If I need a Shelter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 15,924

Well these don't use Horses.The places I seen they was distroying everything.My Son said he seen one place they was cutting Walnut.Thing is they was cutting all Walnut wheather they made Logs or not.

My neighbor had the Amish cut on him it looked really BAD.I asked him about the Guy I had coming he said he doesn't tear up so much because his equipment isn't so big.

I'm just wanting to open up my timber for more browse .

Oh well we'll see.

big rockpile

__________________

I love being married.Its so great to find that one person you want to annoy for the rest of your life.



If I need a Shelter
If I need a Friend
I go to the Rock!

Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04/12/10, 08:49 PM
Outstanding in my field
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Western Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,329

The Amish have NO ability to manage a wood lot. Allowing them to cut and skid with horses is not a bad idea ..... but do not let them decide what to cut and what to leave standing. Hire a forester to decide what to cut and what to leave standing. Many of the Amish are good farmers but they know nothing about forest management .... they don't have a clue.

Well perhaps I should explain: The Amish know which trees have value and it only makes sense to them to cut those trees.... they will be looking out for their own interests and not yours.

The Amish generally are like the English (Amish refer to anyone not Amish as "English") ..... there is the good, the bad, and the ugly and I have experienced all three !

The ugly is when you take them to court for timber theft.... they would not settle out of court so I had to hire a lawer to get it done.

We have a clan of them locally that are made up of outcasts from the good ones.

__________________

Last edited by Johnny Dolittle; 04/12/10 at 09:09 PM. Reason: clarify
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04/12/10, 09:49 PM
texican's Avatar  
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Carthage, Texas
Posts: 12,046

Logging, by it's very nature, is a very destructive process. You're destroying a forest and leaving behind a ruined landscape... never seen a logged tract that looked 'pretty'. There is one local guy that'll small scale log your place, and prettify it up when he leaves... of course, if you want it realllll purty, you'll not get any cash out of the deal. Loggers want logs, and logs only. Making purty and cleaning up doesn't make them money, and if they do it, they'll necessarily have to pay you less, if anything.

Knowing loggers, I'd not call any one group, like the Amish, bad...

__________________

Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. Seneca
Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival. W. Edwards Deming

Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04/13/10, 06:26 AM
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,693

The reputation people have given the Amish for high quality work is vastly overblown and generally false. Most, in my experience, are going to make a buck off you, and you're just english, not really human.

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04/13/10, 07:31 AM
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: So. Cental Mo. (abt 60 miles from Ark.line)
Posts: 3,933

There's a guy in this area that uses a machine, forgot what it's called, that cuts trees off at the ground, then pushes them where ever you want, biggest thing is, it looks so neat when it's done, no stumps sticking up, or brush left--just brush piles, where you want them, for rabbits, etc.

__________________

In Life, We Weep at the thought of Death'
Who Knows, Perhaps in Death,
We Weep at the though of Life.

Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04/13/10, 07:59 AM
springvalley's Avatar
Family Jersey Dairy
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,762

Once again some of you on herehave lumped one people into a group of no goods. The Amish on a whole are good people, As Johnny Dolittle stated there are good ,bad , and not to honest Amish. The thing here is the guys next door logging are ruining alot of stuff, they might even be Menonites. I have never seen Amish running heavy equipment, but hey I don`t get out as much as I use to. I to have had bad loggers, they leave a mess and cut and run, I had to threaten to call my lawyer in order to get them to come back and clean up. And no I`m not a fuss budget, they said that they would do that and I held them to it, they left tops in the creek and crap all over. And I quote the one guy told me " It will look like a park when were done " boy don`t know what kinda park he goes to , but it wasn`t one. Anyway good luck Rock, The Amish are good people. Thanks Marc

__________________

Our Diversified Stock Portfolio: cows and calves, alpacas, horses, pigs, chickens, goats, sheep, cats ... and a couple of dogs...
http://springvalleyfarm.4mg.com

Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04/13/10, 08:23 AM
Outstanding in my field
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Western Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,329
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxtrapper View Post
The reputation people have given the Amish for high quality work is vastly overblown and generally false. Most, in my experience, are going to make a buck off you, and you're just english, not really human.
I would not agree that it is generally false but sometimes false and often overblown.

A friend of mine had an old warped two story farmhouse ..... he removed the second story and cobbled on a new roof and fixed up the interior and some years later his wife wanted the cobbled roof taken off and replaced with trusses so that the house would look good again. They hired the Amish to do it and during the first rain they noticed that the water was flowing the wrong way in the gutters and not going down the down spouts !!!!!

The Amish in there craftsmanship are just like the English and you should only hire if you know a crew has a good reputation.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04/13/10, 09:02 AM
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Pemaquid, ME
Posts: 71

Why would you assume that their religion (Amish) has anything to do with weather or not they are good loggers? I lived in PA for a long time, and I can assure you that there are good and bad tradesmen of all religions. Their being Amish has nothing to do with their logging. It's just that there are some bad loggers out there.

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04/13/10, 10:16 AM
big rockpile's Avatar
If I need a Shelter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 15,924

Ok I see where this is going.I put Amish because they do most the Logging here at this time.The Guy I got isn't Amish and with his equipment don't tear up as much,he will try to not distroy trees that your wanting to keep.Yes I understand it can't be helped losing some but the Amish seem like they just want to Clear Cut I understand this is much easier.

Yes I know they are good people as matter fact I had one stop help me the other day coming from Church I didn't have the proper Lug Wrench to tighten my Lugs after having a flat.This Amish stopped had Lug Wrench in their Van he let me use.

big rockpile

__________________

I love being married.Its so great to find that one person you want to annoy for the rest of your life.



If I need a Shelter
If I need a Friend
I go to the Rock!

Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04/13/10, 02:20 PM
hunter63's Avatar  
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,991
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachcomber View Post
what does amish have to do with it
Nothing, they are the same as everyone else, just go to a different church.
Good ones, bad ones and everything in between.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04/14/10, 07:40 PM
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Northern NY
Posts: 1,180
Quote:
Originally Posted by big rockpile View Post
Ok I see where this is going.I put Amish because they do most the Logging here at this time.



This Amish stopped had Lug Wrench in their Van he let me use.

big rockpile
So are they Amish or ar you just assuming they're Amish? No Amish from our area drives anything but a horse. Maybe you ought to check and see if they're Amish, Mennonite or a bunch of wannabes with beards that tell people they're Amish. We have them up here too.

Amish are just like anybody else- good, bad and freakin retards that are a waste of air and space. Take everyone on a individual level instead of grouping them and you'll do a lot better in life.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04/14/10, 07:47 PM
big rockpile's Avatar
If I need a Shelter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 15,924
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bret4207 View Post
So are they Amish or ar you just assuming they're Amish? No Amish from our area drives anything but a horse. Maybe you ought to check and see if they're Amish, Mennonite or a bunch of wannabes with beards that tell people they're Amish. We have them up here too.

Amish are just like anybody else- good, bad and freakin retards that are a waste of air and space. Take everyone on a individual level instead of grouping them and you'll do a lot better in life.
Yes their Amish.We have Amish and Mennonites their beliefs are just opposit of what most think here.Our Mennonite are Horse and Buggy when we first moved here I asked one if they were Amish and he told me No they are Old Order Mennonite but they work for the Amish because they have Vehicals to get around with Construction Crews.

I've dealt with both around the state.

big rockpile
__________________

I love being married.Its so great to find that one person you want to annoy for the rest of your life.



If I need a Shelter
If I need a Friend
I go to the Rock!

Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04/15/10, 12:44 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Piedmont Central Virginia
Posts: 641

Bret, no reason to get all snarly because of the category of Amish and start chastising because people are not dealt with as "individuals." In dealing with individuals there are still classifications to sort them into. If I think of Amish, you are correct, I would expect him (I don't know any female loggers) to not have rubber tires on his wheels, to only use horses, to have certain genetic, environmental and religious programming and to use buttons on his clothing. No zippers! As a logger he would probably have no training in silvaculture because they are only in school through age 16 and its their kind of school.
Beyond these basics there are deviations as to character, ethics, morals, ability, etc where the person is an individual.
I am having terrible problems with a logger right now. Mine happens to be black and cannot read. He was desperate for money so I made a very favorable deal. For him. He made me a lot of promises he apparently (from my experience after the events) he never had any intention of keeping. Loggers as a group get very little money in return for heavy investments in equipment plUs skills fewer and fewer people these days can or will develop. It seems they develop skills in seeking out the best trees and cutting them when they are supposed to be cuutting pulpwood.
When you look at an "individual" to judge whether he will meet your criterion for getting the job done that fits your pictures, you need a set of stable data to measure him against. Part of that stable data is who he declares himself to be. If he says he is Amish, that gives you a set to compare him against. If he's driving a van, not a horse, then is he Amish? Actually?he might be, but... Or except for the exceptions.
The point being, who is best to honestly cut the trees wanted to be cut and leave standing, undamaged, the trees you want to keep? Who can do this and provide you with the best profit margin? You are right about individuals but won't you grant that there are classes of people to sort through first before you get to individuals?

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04/15/10, 07:07 AM
big rockpile's Avatar
If I need a Shelter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 15,924
Quote:
Originally Posted by Navotifarm View Post
Bret, no reason to get all snarly because of the category of Amish and start chastising because people are not dealt with as "individuals." In dealing with individuals there are still classifications to sort them into. If I think of Amish, you are correct, I would expect him (I don't know any female loggers) to not have rubber tires on his wheels, to only use horses, to have certain genetic, environmental and religious programming and to use buttons on his clothing. No zippers! As a logger he would probably have no training in silvaculture because they are only in school through age 16 and its their kind of school.
Beyond these basics there are deviations as to character, ethics, morals, ability, etc where the person is an individual.
I am having terrible problems with a logger right now. Mine happens to be black and cannot read. He was desperate for money so I made a very favorable deal. For him. He made me a lot of promises he apparently (from my experience after the events) he never had any intention of keeping. Loggers as a group get very little money in return for heavy investments in equipment plUs skills fewer and fewer people these days can or will develop. It seems they develop skills in seeking out the best trees and cutting them when they are supposed to be cuutting pulpwood.
When you look at an "individual" to judge whether he will meet your criterion for getting the job done that fits your pictures, you need a set of stable data to measure him against. Part of that stable data is who he declares himself to be. If he says he is Amish, that gives you a set to compare him against. If he's driving a van, not a horse, then is he Amish? Actually?he might be, but... Or except for the exceptions.
The point being, who is best to honestly cut the trees wanted to be cut and leave standing, undamaged, the trees you want to keep? Who can do this and provide you with the best profit margin? You are right about individuals but won't you grant that there are classes of people to sort through first before you get to individuals?
Ok they only go to school here until they are 14,soon as they have their birthday they are out.

Most around here have known the Timber Business all their life because thats all there has been.But they are turning towards Truck Farming now.

I was raised in a Logging Home.My first wife was Native American who's Family were Loggers.Me I have cut Pulpwood in the past.So yes I know some on Logging.

I did know a Logger years ago back when they was spraying Timber to kill it.You wasn't suppose to use the Trees for Lumber but you guessed it he was cutting them hauling them to the Sawmill but he also was living with a Black Woman,had no Plates on his Vehicals and was Snarring Deer.So he played by his own rules and I don't believe I would trust him to cut my timber either.

big rockpile
__________________

I love being married.Its so great to find that one person you want to annoy for the rest of your life.



If I need a Shelter
If I need a Friend
I go to the Rock!

Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04/15/10, 07:45 AM
In Remembrance
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,844

Like the others have said, go look at their past couple of jobs and speak with the property owners.

Like a lot of businesses, problem is economy of scale. You likely don't have enough timber to attract a larger operator with modern, efficient equipment. More likely a one-pickup crew with a cutter, skid operator and loader/hauler.

When you watch Ax Men and similar programs note how often the owners complains about barely breaking even on most jobs. A breakdown in a single piece of equipment can shut the entire site down for hours, if not days. And then there is the weather.

Call the State Forester for your regional and ask if they will do a timber cruise for you. In some places they will even mark the trees to be taken out. Some will also mark veneer-quality, which bring a premium price.

I suspect one aspect which will be looked at is if the area has been fenced before. Embedded wire and staples can quickly damage an expensive sawblade. If they have to cut off and discard the lower 4-6' it can greatly reduce the value of that particular tree.

Until maybe twenty years ago ago most of what was cut locally was turned into railroad ties, with side trimmings being somewhat a bonus. Now they also cut for pulp. For example, area of about 70 acres down the road was cut last year for the higher quality trees. Now they are going back in after the pulp-grade one. I suspect it is a fill-in between higher grade cutting. Difference is a grow-back period of say 50 years rather than 20.

I know the cutter. At least second generation loggers and his father and two uncles own a small sawmill. He said he is now cutting tracts his father did 20-30 years ago.

Sounds almost like you could mark your own trees and then cut firewood for a long time from the tops left behind.

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 04/15/10, 09:08 AM
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Northern NY
Posts: 1,180
Quote:
Originally Posted by big rockpile View Post
Ok they only go to school here until they are 14,soon as they have their birthday they are out.

Most around here have known the Timber Business all their life because thats all there has been.But they are turning towards Truck Farming now.

I was raised in a Logging Home.My first wife was Native American who's Family were Loggers.Me I have cut Pulpwood in the past.So yes I know some on Logging.

I did know a Logger years ago back when they was spraying Timber to kill it.You wasn't suppose to use the Trees for Lumber but you guessed it he was cutting them hauling them to the Sawmill but he also was living with a Black Woman,had no Plates on his Vehicals and was Snarring Deer.So he played by his own rules and I don't believe I would trust him to cut my timber either.

big rockpile
Okay, enough. Maybe I am "snarly" but bigoted garbage like this is too much.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 04/15/10, 10:26 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bret4207 View Post
Okay, enough. Maybe I am "snarly" but bigoted garbage like this is too much.
I agree with you Bret. I find the information on this site a fantastic resource but unlike others I frequent, this place has a general feeling of intolerance and hostility. I can't tell you how many times I've typed out a lengthy reply to some of the nonsense that people spout here only to just delete it, because it really does no good. This is the good ole' boy's club and people like us are the minority.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 04/15/10, 12:15 PM
big rockpile's Avatar
If I need a Shelter
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ozarks
Posts: 15,924
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Scharabok View Post
Like the others have said, go look at their past couple of jobs and speak with the property owners.

Like a lot of businesses, problem is economy of scale. You likely don't have enough timber to attract a larger operator with modern, efficient equipment. More likely a one-pickup crew with a cutter, skid operator and loader/hauler.

When you watch Ax Men and similar programs note how often the owners complains about barely breaking even on most jobs. A breakdown in a single piece of equipment can shut the entire site down for hours, if not days. And then there is the weather.

Call the State Forester for your regional and ask if they will do a timber cruise for you. In some places they will even mark the trees to be taken out. Some will also mark veneer-quality, which bring a premium price.

I suspect one aspect which will be looked at is if the area has been fenced before. Embedded wire and staples can quickly damage an expensive sawblade. If they have to cut off and discard the lower 4-6' it can greatly reduce the value of that particular tree.

Until maybe twenty years ago ago most of what was cut locally was turned into railroad ties, with side trimmings being somewhat a bonus. Now they also cut for pulp. For example, area of about 70 acres down the road was cut last year for the higher quality trees. Now they are going back in after the pulp-grade one. I suspect it is a fill-in between higher grade cutting. Difference is a grow-back period of say 50 years rather than 20.

I know the cutter. At least second generation loggers and his father and two uncles own a small sawmill. He said he is now cutting tracts his father did 20-30 years ago.

Sounds almost like you could mark your own trees and then cut firewood for a long time from the tops left behind.
The Guy that is cutting mine is cutting for RR Ties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bret4207 View Post
Okay, enough. Maybe I am "snarly" but bigoted garbage like this is too much.
Hey don't get your Hackels all Ruffled.Back then I had never seen a Black and Whites and Blacks just didn't mix the same as me and my first Wife.

But seeing this Guy with his woman did spark my curiousity as to relationships with Black women which I have enjoyed in the past.

So take what I said how ever you want to no skin of my nose. OH!

big rockpile
__________________

I love being married.Its so great to find that one person you want to annoy for the rest of your life.



If I need a Shelter
If I need a Friend
I go to the Rock!

Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 04/15/10, 02:44 PM
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,731

Around here.....the different orders of Amish have different rules. Some are allowed to use motorized equipment and electricity for their work, but not for their "personal" use.
For example, the Amish person that I bought this property from does some excavating. He pays someone to haul the bulldozer, etc. to the job site. And he hires a driver to take him to the job site, and take him home each evening.
There are a lot of Amish "furniture factories" in this area. They use electricity in the workshop, but not in their houses.
What I chuckle at.......an elderly Amish couple driving their horse and buggy down the road.......while talking on their cell phones!!!!
Another "ironic" scene.......I went to a grazing conference. One of the speakers was an Amish farmer. He was using a power point presentation (obviously, there was a computer involved).......and part of his presentation was showing how he has modified some equipment (I think that it as a "chopper") .....powered it with a gasoline engine on a forecart.....that was, in turn pulled by a team of horses!!! Picture that!!......beard, "plain" clothes, showing horse equipment......with a microphone and power point presentation!!!!!

__________________

"When you are having dinner with someone and they are nice to you, but rude to the waiter, then this is not a nice person.".....Dave Barry

Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 04/15/10, 04:16 PM
hunter63's Avatar  
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,991

B-2, I hear ya,
My cabin was built by an Amish crew, no elect, but didn't have a problem with gas or diesel.
Didn't have a problem with elect. either if it was YOUR elect.

I saw more equipment that started out being elect, converted to diesel power, even a table saw w/3 hp Honda gas motor.

The guy (boss) owned a new GMC pick-up, but had some one else drive him and the crew around.
The local group thought he was getting a little too "English", so made a rule that you had to be 21 years old to ride in a rubber tired vehicle, so cut his crew in half.
He sold out amd moved about 60 miles away, different rules.

Always wondered how you could have an Amish web site.

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:19 AM.