puddle in wrong place ...

[motdaugrnds]

I had a question and posted it in a different forum where it was suggested I copy/paste it in the "Homesteading Questions" forum. Thus, here it is.

water hole in wrong place

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I do not know if this is the correct forum for this thread. If it isn't, please feel free to move it.

I have a drive from state road to house that is about 300 ft in length. At about 200 ft it makes a "y" and one way goes by the barn, around the back of the house to the other side and then continues back into the acreage to the buck house. (We raise dairy goats and keep the does in the main barn with the bucks in what we call a buck house on the other side of the acreage and farther back; not because they have an ordor because they don't, but because we want them to have access to the back grazing pastures while the does have access to the front grazing pastures.) You can get an idea of how all this looks at http://motdaugrnds.250free.com (Just click "motdaugrnds" on that main page to see our homestead.)

The situation I need to remedy is this. There near the "y" is a large mud puddle (about 5' x 5'). Periodically we have kept it managed by putting extra gravel in it when graveling the drives. One year I even added some saw dust and some agricultural lime in an attempt to harden it. We have been fighting this puddle for over 14 yrs. What we do to fix it works for a year or two; then the puddle is bad again. I have no doubt there is water running under it that keeps eating out the soil, yet I have no idea how deep that water is. Our well is 79' deep and is on one side of our drive. There is a large area on the other side of the drive that is probably a pond if we ever get to dig it out. (I say this because back in 1995 when we had that acreage cleared by a dozer I saw the land move up and down like a large wave of water and the man on the dozer told me there was definately water under that area. Also, one who knows this acreage told me there use to be a very nice spring there; and also, the acreage has a fairly steep incline with a large gutter coming from that area.)

Now, I have no idea how to fix this mud puddle. I have thought of digging it out all the way to the one side we believe a pond to be; but doing this messes up the drive to our barn. I really don't want to dig it out on the side of our well. This well has been serving us very well since 1995; but it is only 79' deep and I don't want to take any chances on disturbing it. I have even considered digging that puddle area down far enough to hit the water under it and then letting it fill up for a small water hole; but in the "y" of our road? This just doesn't seem like a good thing to do; thus, I am stumped. I would greatly appreciate some ideas.

Thank you.

[oneokie]

Several things come to mind. Install drain tile in that area to carry the water away. A French Drain would do the same.

Dig the area out to a depth of 2 feet or more and fill with large rock. 10" or larger and then cover with gravel.

[motdaugrnds]

Oneokie, the water under this puddle goes to a very nice pond (if we ever get it dug out). Putting rock in this puddle could very well stop the flow and we don't want to do that. Placing 10" rock or larger might be an option "if" I knew that rock would not actually stop that spring from running.

We don't want to stop the water flow. We just want to find some way to keep it from interferring in our drive. (Our drive is sloped and, in icy weather, can be quite difficult to get up.) Hope our dilemma can be seen, i.e. we want the water flowing normally and we, also, want it to stop digging out our drive.

I will see if I can get a picture or two so our situation can be more easily understood.

[Tana Mc]

I don't think tha he means boulder sized rock that would block the flow. I think that he means large gravel like you would see on a railway bed, etc. Then top that with the smaller driveway gravel. That should give you a harder base to help keep from "wallowing" it out as you drive on it . The water would still seep thru it down to the pond.
I've dealt with this sort of thing and I prefer the drain tile.

[NCLee]

When they paved our road, there was a spring under the road. During certain times of year, we could see surface water. The road crew dug a hole with a backhoe. Then, dug across to one side of the road. Then, almost filled the holes with large gravel. Over the gravel, they put the same soil that was used for the rest of the road. Compacted it and paved over the spring. Water from the spring made it's way through the gravel to the ditch on the side of the road.

Would another option be to cut a ditch across your driveway, then top the ditch with a cattle crossing?

Lee

[ronbre]

dig down a little..lay in some french drain tile..across the drive from the higher to the lower with a slight grade on the tile..and then put the gravel back down and on top of that a clay/gravel (driveway) mixture..

the wet will drain into the tiles and away to the wet/low area..works like a charm, weve done it here..

the french drain stuff is a corrugated pipe with holes in it and a fabric cloth cover over that..we've bought hundreds of feet of this stuff and used it all over our low property..even under the lawn and around the buildings

[palani]

Plant a tree. Put three posts in to protect it. Add rails. Paint them white. Add 2 1/2 feet of gravel on each side so the driveway stays the same width entering as leaving.

When handed lemons make lemonade.

[artificer]

I would second the drain tile. Since I have a backhoe, I have no problem digging and trenching. Might not cost too much for someone to do it for you. I would dig out the wet area down to below the frost line. Fill with large rocks as mentioned, but lay the perforated plastic drain tile in it it, fill with finer gravel, geotex fabric, and then fill to level with soil. The drain tile goes from the mud hole to the pond. This will ensure good drainage. If you don't want to go all the way to the pond, you can make something like a leach field. Repeat what was done at the mud hole at the end of the drain tile, down the slope. Water has a large area to accumulate and flow to the drain, goes down the drain tile, and ends up being spread out, and hopefully flowing underground.

The reason I would run the drain tile all the way to the pond is that you could create a new mud hole at the end of the drain tile. If you don't care about the new mud hole location, then it would be cheaper to just stop when you got to that spot.

Michael

[fantasymaker]

Drain it or bridge it. Id put a perferated drain tile in and lead it to the area you want the pond in. then put about 3 feet of rock in the dig out area of the puddle.

[rambler]

Drain it with tile if there is a lower area to run the water to.

Build the road up with clay, 3 inch rock, and gravel over the top of that.

Don't ever use sawdust or organic type material agian. Bad idea.

Your location would be nice, is this a springtime frost boil, or is it a spring, or a mudhole puddle, or.... You kinda used all the words interchangably, so who knows what you are dealing with? I'd attack each differenty.....

--->Paul

[o&itw]

Pictures would be good..........

[motdaugrnds]

Tana Mc, that is what I've been doing, i.e. placing large gravel; then smaller driveway gravel. It does give me a harder base for awhile. It is not a question of the water "seeping through it". My problem is that the flow of water "under" it keeps sucking whatever I place there farther into the ground, leaving a concave that holds rain water. (This spot is on the high part of the drive.)

NCLee, that is the situation I have; and I have indeed considered digging this out all the way across the drive toward the area we believe a pond exists (How deep we do not know yet.). I have, also, considered topping the ditch dug with cattle crossing too. I ditched (pardon the pun) this idea because we have baby goats running around; and I have no doubt one or more would break a leg getting it caught in that cattle crossing.

Ronbre, that is what we did when we put in our septic system. I also used that corrugated pipe with holes in it to control the flow of water around the buck house and part of the tool shed. It works very well; however it was different in that the water I was controlling was "run-off" water that was seaping "down" into the ground; not a water flow washing the undersoil. (I even bored holes into one side of some left-over 2" plastic piping we had and used this for similar purposes, which also worked well.) If we do it in this spot, I'm wondering what will stabilize that corrugated piping & keep the high end open since the ground is being washed away from "under" the drive where the water is running.

Artificer, that is actually what it is doing now, i.e. running from the mud puddle (concave area) all the way to the area where the pond would be. The problem is that the flow of water continues to eat away at the top soil (gravel too) taking it with it and, thus, another concave area appears in a year or two in the very same spot, i.e. the middle of our drive.

Rambler, it is not a frost boil. It is a spring flowing under the drive that causes a concave area to appear in the middle of our drive. Will you tell me why "sawdust" is a "bad idea"?

o&itw, It has been raining here; so have not been able to get out and get the pictures; but will asap and post them here. I know I am not doing a good job explaining it and hope pictures will help you kind people to better understand.

[Backfourty,MI.]

What about putting in a culvert like you would have at the end of the driveway, where it meets the road? That way the water will still run to where you want it to go & your driveway will then be nice & dry & driveable.

[motdaugrnds]

A culvert (in my mind) is similar to the other suggestions given. It still needs to be placed on something "stable" that won't be washed away by the flow of water taking the soil.

I am thinking it just might be that we will need to just start digging a trench from there toward the side where we know a pond will one day be (hopefully). Doing this will show us if there is any hard base with which to work. My problem in doing this is in anticipating what we need at the end of this trench and getting that prepared prior to digging the trench. (Monthly income inhibits progress significantly.)

It has stopped raining; so I will be uploading pictures here soon.

[oneokie]

Your soil and gravel is not being "washed" away in the area of the puddle in the driveway. The water in the ground is keeping the underlying area in a semi-liquid state and traffic on the drive is forcing the gravel down into the ground.

A drain tile, or multiple drain tiles installed from one side of the drive to a point lower on the opposite side of the drive will allow the water to move easier and quicker, thus drying the problem area. Personally, I would start the drain tile/French drain 8 feet or more from the drive, across the drive and end it 8 feet or more from the drive on the downhill side of the drive.

[motdaugrnds]

oneokie, I am trying so hard to understand what you are saying, i.e. "Your soil and gravel is not being "washed" away in the area of the puddle in the driveway. The water in the ground is keeping the underlying area in a semi-liquid state and traffic on the drive is forcing the gravel down into the ground."

I do know our driving across this area is forcing whatever we fill that concave up with down farther into the ground. This tells me it is either being washed away at the water flow or it is slowly creating a barrier to that water flow. Neither of these seem good to me.

I am sure my ignorance is getting in my way of fixing this area; however, whatever I wind up doing "must" be something that will not interrupt that underground flow of water nor affect my 79' well, which is only about 100 ft from that concave area.

I have managed to create a picture of what I am dealing with, with notations on it. I will put it in this post if I can. If I cannot get it in this post, it can be viewed on my website at http://motdaugrnds.250free.com/sharing/puddle.jpg

I am very grateful for the discussions in this thread. Sometimes it is difficult for me to understand what another is saying; but eventually I do get it. Thank you all for helping.

Here is the picture .. hopefully.




Yeah, made it! As can be seen, our drive slants "up" as we head for the state road. It starts rather high where our house is & where we can park, then it slopes "down" about half way to the road (passing this puddle in that decline); then slants up again more steeply to get through our front gate and up near the state road. This means during icy periods we have a hard time getting up there. Keeping this drive as straight as possible is a neccessity because of this.

[oneokie]

Gravel by itself will not create a barrier to water flow.

What is the static water level in the well? Is the well a flowing/artesian well? If it is close to the surface, that may be part of your problems.

I am having difficulty understanding your comments about a possible existing pond to the right of and beyond the utility pole in your picture. Was there a pond in that location in the past? Or is that where you would like to construct a pond in the future?

Is it your desire/intention to use the water from the area of the puddle to feed the pond?
If so, drainage tile/French drain with the piping extended to the area of the "pond under at this point" would help to move the excess water from the drive to a lower elevation.

Excavating the puddle area in the drive to a depth of 2 or 3 feet and then filling half way with large rocks, then medium sized gravel, then coarse sand, a layer of geo-textile fabric and a final layer of gravel like you are using for the remainder of the driveway would let the water leave the area easily. It would keep the surface in that area dryer than it is now. If you can drain that area to the right towards where you want to construct the pond, and have the discharge end of the drain 2 or 3 feet lower than the surface of the drive in the puddle area, that should remedy the problem with the puddle.

From your picture, it appears that the area to the left of the driveway slopes down hill at a greater incline that the area to the right of the driveway. If you could discharge the drain/s in that direction, you would probably not have to use as much tile/pipe to achieve the same results.

[rambler]

Originally Posted by motdaugrnds

Rambler, it is not a frost boil. It is a spring flowing under the drive that causes a concave area to appear in the middle of our drive. Will you tell me why "sawdust" is a "bad idea"?
.

Your comments are very confusing, but that is how we learn so keep on. We'll get there.

Organic material like sawdust or straw or paper or grass clippings will appear to help for a short time.

But as they decompose, they turn into organic matter & become a base-less, watery, smeary mulch, and make the situation worse - more muddy, more smeary, less stable. They are great for a temporary trail, or a one-time fix on a spring trail, but bad deal for a real driveway with real traffic for years to come.

So, from the pic you have a flat-ish trail on lightly sloped ground, and there must be a bit of a seep in the area, which keeps that area damp at certain parts of the year. Maybe not even damp on the surface, but damp a few inches below ground? Probably worse in spring or if there is constant heavy rain?

Does that describe it?

(That would be a frost boil, actually.....)

You keep talking about dirt or whatever being washed away by the water running underground. That is perhaps the most confusing part - that doesn't happen. Do you ever see dirt washing away across the surface? If so, then I'd like to know that. That would be surface erosion from the top. If not, then you don't have any dirt washing away.

What happens is the area gets saturated by water, and the vibrations of driving over it mixes the water & the dirt particles. This vibration turns the combination into a liquid (kind of) - very unstable - and the weight of your vehicle makes the ground sink a bit. It actually pushes back up a few inches or feet beside the area. Over time, you are driving in a depression of a couple inches, and the sides actually have heaved up a 1/2 inch or so. Now you have a depression that holds water, and it keeps the area more saturated than before, plus every time you drive through the area a few bits of mud stick on the wheels and get hauled away.

Over time, this condition makes itself worse & worse. It appears the hole grows deeper, and stays wetter. In a way it does, but really a lot of different things (as above) are going on, the ground is not 'flowing' anywhere undernieth.

Adding gravel on top helps when it is dry, but the same thing keeps happening in the same area, because the ground under that spot is 'kinda liquid' now because it is wet & plyable - the vibration-turns-it-into-liquid deal. (This is a frost boil.)

Really most of our roads and fields and driving happens on dirt that is on top of water veins. The key is that the prticles of dirt are big enough to not be subject to that vibration I mentioned; or there is enough dry dirt on top of the water that the vibration doesn't tavel down to the water layer.

So, all that is to tell you:

You need bigger particles of dirt (as in, rock size!) or you need to build you road up higher (to put dry dirt between the current water level & your road surface); or you need to lower the level of the water (by putting in drainage tile that lead out to someplace lower).

Those will be your 3 options, and a bit of all 3 might work out best.

I would not bother with 2 inch drain tile, it doesn't flow enough, not forgiving enough, and likes to fill with dirt. Get the 4 inch corigated tile. That is better.

You need it about 3 feet deep, and you will be able to drive over it all day long. As well it will then dry out the ground deep enough so your dirt will turn into something solid, and not be affected by the watery vibration effect.

You talk about a pond that is or isn't there - that too is terribly confusing, but has little to do with getting the road drained, so I'll ignore that for now. But - I have no idea what this pond thing is....

Since I wrote so much, I'm probably confusing. I'll try to make it simple:

You need to have more dry dirt between your road surface & your water table. Three feet is often a good number of dry dirt to have.

You can either:

Add more dirt to make a raised road, like most roadbeds you see.

Add drainage tile deep enough to lower the water at least 3 feet below the road surface.

Use larger rock so it has better support in the soggy ground - you might need a lot until it supports itself.


A good combination of these likely would work too.


Does this help any, or keep asking questions, there are a lot smarter people than me here that can help.

--->PAul

[rambler]

Originally Posted by motdaugrnds

I do know our driving across this area is forcing whatever we fill that concave up with down farther into the ground. This tells me it is either being washed away at the water flow or it is slowly creating a barrier to that water flow. Neither of these seem good to me.

Just to try to explain this part better;

The ground is actually being driven down in a depression in this spot.

What you aren't noticing is that all around it, the ground is raising up a tiny little bit.

It would be like sitting on a water bed. You sink in a couple inches, but the water in the bed doesn't 'go' anywhere. It just rises up a little bit all over - not enough to notice, but enough to equal out.

As well since this spot stays wetter, your tires tend to take a few spoonfuls of dirt away each time you drive through. Not much, but enough to make a difference over time.

You aren't blocking any subsurface waterflow, nor are you making any dirt move away very far. You are just pounding a wetspot down into a depression, with the surrounding area heaving up a tiny un-noticable bit.

This is how soil behaves when it is wet.

This is why most good roads you see built by the govt are raised up higher, with a bit of a ditch dug down each side. It keeps the water out of the roadbed below where the tires go. This keeps the road bed below the tires stable.

What you actually want to do - raise up the road surface, and have some drainage ditches down each side to keep the water away. I know, that doesn't happen for free.

--->Paul

[motdaugrnds]

I cannot express my appreciation enough for the patience shown here. I am so very grateful.

Oneokie, "...I am having difficulty understanding your comments about a possible existing pond to the right of and beyond the utility pole in your picture. Was there a pond in that location in the past? Or is that where you would like to construct a pond in the future?"

.....This is where I saw the land go up and down (about 50' on both sides of a heavy dozer that we had clearing that area). It was obvious water was standing there and the entire year had been in a drought. That and the exaggerated slope near it plus what a neighbor told me of a "very nice spring" there a few years back leads me to believe it could be dug out for a pond. (I also know a spring can be plugged over time by throwing various sized rock into it. The water will find another outlet; but it can be stopped at that outlet.)

We are in Virginia and as far as I know there are no artesian wells here. We have many underground springs though. (The creek bordering our back acreage flows rapidly and is fed by 5 springs and, though the creek itself is only 2-3' deep, the sides coming up from the water are 2-3' higher.)

It is my intention to "not stop" the water contributing to the puddle from feeding the pond.

"...Excavating the puddle area in the drive to a depth of 2 or 3 feet and then filling half way with large rocks, then medium sized gravel, then coarse sand, a layer of geo-textile fabric and a final layer of gravel like you are using for the remainder of the driveway would let the water leave the area easily. It would keep the surface in that area dryer than it is now. If you can drain that area to the right towards where you want to construct the pond, and have the discharge end of the drain 2 or 3 feet lower than the surface of the drive in the puddle area, that should remedy the problem with the puddle."

This might work! I am certainly leaning toward doing this. My concern is that the larger rock might eventually slip into the area where the water is running toward our pond area; and if that occurs, the water flow might eventually find a different route and thereby negate any possibility of our having a pond.

Yes, the area on the well side of our drive has a greater incline; however, it also has a hardpan not far below the surface and would turn into a marsh if I had not had the dozer shape that area so it drained toward the back creek, placing barriers so as not to lose anymore soil. I really don't want to set up any situation there that could possibly create a rut for me to deal with. (I mow all my pastures with a DR Field & Brush Mower that I walk behind.)

=====================

Rambler, "...So, from the pic you have a flat-ish trail on lightly sloped ground, and there must be a bit of a seep in the area, which keeps that area damp at certain parts of the year. Maybe not even damp on the surface, but damp a few inches below ground? Probably worse in spring or if there is constant heavy rain? Does that describe it?"

I am not sure what you mean by "seep"; but if you mean a crack in some hardpan just above the spring flowing underground, yes I think so. If it were just dirt washing away across the surface, I would not have problems fixing that. Have you ever seen an hour glass where the sand seeps through to the lower level? That is what I am thinking is occurring under this puddle area. (All speculation since I have not dug down to find out.)


"...What happens is the area gets saturated by water, and the vibrations of driving over it mixes the water & the dirt particles. This vibration turns the combination into a liquid (kind of) - very unstable - and the weight of your vehicle makes the ground sink a bit. It actually pushes back up a few inches or feet beside the area. Over time, you are driving in a depression of a couple inches, and the sides actually have heaved up a 1/2 inch or so. Now you have a depression that holds water, and it keeps the area more saturated than before, plus every time you drive through the area a few bits of mud stick on the wheels and get hauled away."

I do understand what you're saying as that occurs in the drive after lengthy rains, i.e. the weight of the car pushes the wet soil to the sides of the tire tracks. However, this does not occur where this puddle is. The soil/gravel does not get pushed up to form sides; yet a depression does show up.
----

I do understand how the corrugated piping could help .. "if" that piping stayed in place. Seems to me it would need some type of a "hardbed/hardpan" to sit on; and I do believe there is a significant hardbed in and around this area. Our house, barn and other structures certainly sit on a hardpan. (Had to move fruit trees to different places in garden so their tap roots would not hit a hardbed; so I know the pros and cons to a hardbed.) Seems to me this puddle area giving me so much trouble is a "split" in the hardbed. Does this make sense?