Energy Star Appliances

[tamilee]

How accurate are the ratings listed on the Energy Star product pages? I have been looking at dishwashers. I want the most energy efficient which uses the least amount of water.
According to the list :


Bosch SHE68E05UC Standard 180 KWH/yr 1.57 gal/cycle 1.23 E Factor 167% % better

Is it really possible for a standard size dishwasher to use only 1.57 gal/cycle?
Does the government check these statistics or do they rely solely on the company to provide their own data?
If this is accurate then it would be more energy efficient to wash dishes using electricity than to wash them by hand. There is no way i could manually wash a load of dishes and use < 2 gallons.

[Callieslamb]

I think Energy star is the best way to get an accurate energy rating on an appliance. It is group through the dept of energy if I am thinking correctly on that. There is oversight on these ratings - a co can't just state _______. For ENERGY STAR to rate it, means they tested the machine - that rating is their findings. The energy usage might differ from your own home but you will know that the appliance was tested against like appliances and this is what they each used in thost circumstances. The water usage of machines has to be accurate - they cannot falsify those numbers. The appliance industry keeps close watch on each other.......

DH was a dishwasher designer for Maytag for 23 years and now is a project lead engineer with Whirlpool. When Co A comes out with a new machine - Co B buys some and tears them apart -testing, etc. If Co A advertised they use 2 gallons of water, if they use more - they will be crucified by the industry. Here is what you might want to look at -

Do you wash your dishes before you wash your dishes? Because that is the only way you will get a full load of dishes clean and rinsed with 2 gallons of water. You are also not polluting the earth's water any less, since it is the detergents that are the pollutants, not the water (a marketing trick). But they all advertised that using less water contributed less pollution, didn't they? In your figuring for water usage, add in how much water you will use to wash them before you stick them in the machine.

Marketing is a game. An appliance co decides "we are going to sell a machine based on its usage of water". All they have to do is make their "normal" cycle the equivalent (in time and heating) of others' 'rinse only' cycle. Then - in a govt test - they get rated as "least amount of water used" since the test runs all the machines on their "normal" cycle. That test might not consider who gets them cleanest since the parameter of the test is "who uses the least amount of water".

Don't go by one rating alone on machines. Research out the parameters of the tests if you want. I have nothing against Bosch machines in general- I am only (hopefully) answering your questions about ratings and water usage.

[blooba]

Well if you have city water especially, there are a ton of chemicals used to purify that water. They have to take the next upstream cities wastewater and turn it into drinking water. Not an easy task. I have seen how many chemicals they add, its kinda scary.

Most modern Dishwashers dont even need to be prerinsed unless you let it get dried on. Less water used isnt always a good thing, as mentioned, it maybe need prerinsed which nullifies the less water.
Unless you are buying for the tax rebates I wouldn't worry too much about the "Star" get something that works. I have a 30yr old dishwasher thats a water hog but it cleans the dishes. It also uses less water than I would if i washed em by hand. So get something that works instead of the ratings. Look online for reveiws.
Bosch are good dishwashers though.

[WisJim]

Energy Star ratings are a good way to compare appliances, but people use things so differently that you can't expect your appliance in your house to use exactly what the Energy Star listing say. However, I found that our new Energy Star refrigerator and freezer use very close to the ratings say they would. I can see it would vary more for dish washers, washing machines, etc.

Dish washers? I would like to see more info on how they test them--number of dishes, how dirty, etc. We wash by hand, and I have from time to time measured the water we use, and we use about 2 gallons to wash and rinse dishes for a day. We don't pre-rinse, but scrape any food scraps into the compost bucket that is on counter. We don't have rinse water running in the sink, but rinse as needed in a basin. You don't need a lot of water to wash dishes, so it should be possible to make a dishwasher that doesn't use over 1 1/2 gallons, since it can pump it around inside the machine and reuse the same small amount of water.

[gwithrow]

we have had two Bosch dishwashers, both have worked very well, we wipe the greasy heavily soiled dishes with a piece of paper towel before loading them in the dw....and we do clean out the 'trap' in the bottom once in a while...they seem to be efficient and best of all, they are very quiet..both are still operating...

[tamilee]

Originally Posted by Callieslamb

I think Energy star is the best way to get an accurate energy rating on an appliance. It is group through the dept of energy if I am thinking correctly on that. There is oversight on these ratings - a co can't just state _______. For ENERGY STAR to rate it, means they tested the machine - that rating is their findings. The energy usage might differ from your own home but you will know that the appliance was tested against like appliances and this is what they each used in thost circumstances. The water usage of machines has to be accurate - they cannot falsify those numbers. The appliance industry keeps close watch on each other.......

DH was a dishwasher designer for Maytag for 23 years and now is a project lead engineer with Whirlpool. When Co A comes out with a new machine - Co B buys some and tears them apart -testing, etc. If Co A advertised they use 2 gallons of water, if they use more - they will be crucified by the industry. Here is what you might want to look at -

Do you wash your dishes before you wash your dishes? Because that is the only way you will get a full load of dishes clean and rinsed with 2 gallons of water. You are also not polluting the earth's water any less, since it is the detergents that are the pollutants, not the water (a marketing trick). But they all advertised that using less water contributed less pollution, didn't they? In your figuring for water usage, add in how much water you will use to wash them before you stick them in the machine.

Marketing is a game. An appliance co decides "we are going to sell a machine based on its usage of water". All they have to do is make their "normal" cycle the equivalent (in time and heating) of others' 'rinse only' cycle. Then - in a govt test - they get rated as "least amount of water used" since the test runs all the machines on their "normal" cycle. That test might not consider who gets them cleanest since the parameter of the test is "who uses the least amount of water".

Don't go by one rating alone on machines. Research out the parameters of the tests if you want. I have nothing against Bosch machines in general- I am only (hopefully) answering your questions about ratings and water usage.

Thanks for your in-depth and knowledgeable reply. We have well water and I try to conserve water when possible, mainly because when we had a drought a few years ago our well was nearly dry. The water pump had to be replaced because it was burned up by trying to pump a few gallons; we had very low flow rate. I have a houseful of people staying with me in this down economy. The 3 people who sometimes assist in washing dishes LOVE to stand at the sink and wash with HOT WATER RUNNING! I have talked until I'm blue in the face and rather than start WWIII it would be better to get a dishwasher.
I am very happy to learn that the industry regulates itself in that the competition makes sure that truth is being posted about energy and water usage.
If I scrape the dishes and dip them in a pan with a gallon or two of water before loading I think I'll still come out ahead.
Life is to short to quarrel constantly about how things are done and trying to get people to change their ways. I want as little conflict as possible in my remaining years.
Thanks again.
Tamilee

[tamilee]

Originally Posted by WisJim

Energy Star ratings are a good way to compare appliances, but people use things so differently that you can't expect your appliance in your house to use exactly what the Energy Star listing say. However, I found that our new Energy Star refrigerator and freezer use very close to the ratings say they would. I can see it would vary more for dish washers, washing machines, etc.

Dish washers? I would like to see more info on how they test them--number of dishes, how dirty, etc. We wash by hand, and I have from time to time measured the water we use, and we use about 2 gallons to wash and rinse dishes for a day. We don't pre-rinse, but scrape any food scraps into the compost bucket that is on counter. We don't have rinse water running in the sink, but rinse as needed in a basin. You don't need a lot of water to wash dishes, so it should be possible to make a dishwasher that doesn't use over 1 1/2 gallons, since it can pump it around inside the machine and reuse the same small amount of water.

I love the way you all do dishes. I know how you feel. I have had 3 dishwashers in my married life. DH bought two as gifts and mil bought one as a gift. I seldom used them and ended up giving all 3 away.
I hate the idea of having a dishwasher , I really do. But things have changed. With 4 and sometimes 5 extra people in the house and the refusal of people to change their ways I need to find a way to handle the situation that doesn't put so much stress on my heart and nerves. I had chest pains and an errythmia over unwashed dishes and every time someone stands there at the sink running the hot water ( and draining the tank) while washing dishes. I need peace in my life. Another heart attack or stroke , no way, it is not worth the risk over dirty dishes.
Thanks for the reply. I hoped to hear that it was possible for a dishwasher to use so little water and energy.

[tamilee]

Originally Posted by gwithrow

we have had two Bosch dishwashers, both have worked very well, we wipe the greasy heavily soiled dishes with a piece of paper towel before loading them in the dw....and we do clean out the 'trap' in the bottom once in a while...they seem to be efficient and best of all, they are very quiet..both are still operating...

Thanks. I read that they were "quiet" but that term is relative to so many variables. What is "quiet" in a test lab may not be so quiet in a small home. I really can't relate to the whole decible rating system.

[Callieslamb]

I hear you on the DW wars! There is so many fronts that battle can be fought on! I tested machines for years and years. All the brands. All the gimics. We still had DW wars! LOL!!!

A while back, Brand A was advertising that their DW was so many decibles lower than Brand B. But, that difference isn't detectable to the human ear. It's a game they play.

I think you will be fine if you are willing to wipe every dish with a towel or something. But honestly - a dishwasher cannot get dishes clean with 2 gallons. A dishwasher works differently than your sink. Sinks soak - dishwashers spray. What they are saying is that they spray your dishes, drain, fill - spray some more, drain, fill, spray - with only 2 gallons. (you can look up how many fills and sprays) If you think about it - there would be the same amount of 'floaties' in that less amount of water being resprayed on your dishes. Getting the floaties OUT of the water is the 2nd most important consideration in getting dishes clean. (number one is getting the water hot enough) Any dishwasher can get them clean if the water is hot enough - and there is enough water flowing through the machine. Redeposited 'floaties' are a bigger issue than spraying off the orignial food. Check the ratings on their drain and filters also or you are asking for trouble down the road. Less water - bettter be a harder, better working filter. Make sure it is easy to remove, easy to replace correctly and that you can clean it.

Whoever does the testing HAS to make available the parameters for the test. If your sales man can't tell you - MAKE them find out. Their company KNOWS. Informed consumers are a pain to deal with. : )

[tamilee]

Thanks so much for the info and advice. I appreciate it.
tamilee

[MN Gardener]

If you do decide to get an energy star appliance make sure you use your tax credit when you file your taxes and many electric companies will give you a rebate also!

[Wayne02]

Originally Posted by MN Gardener

If you do decide to get an energy star appliance make sure you use your tax credit when you file your taxes and many electric companies will give you a rebate also!

Tax credit?

[txquilter]

We bought all Frigidaire appliances. They all have energy star ratings. What we discovered is that they had virtually the same ratings and were a lot cheaper than the other brands. We've always had good luck with this brand of appliance.

Yes, when you complete your tax return there is a tax credit for energy efficient purchases, upgrades in your home with energy efficient materials, etc.

[ronbre]

love my Bosch (energy star) ...and i can turn it off when it is done and save on drying too..just open it up..and allow all that warm steam into the house (here in Mich i love that warm steam ..so do the cats)

[Wayne02]

Bummer. The list of appliances that are not eligible is long.
I don't see Freezers on either list but I suspect they are lumped in with refrigerators on the no-go list.

Products not covered by the tax credit include:

* Ceiling fans
* Clothes washers & dryers
* Compact Fluorescent Light Bulbs (CFLs)
* Dehumidifiers
* Dishwashers
* Electric furnaces/boilers
* Electric storage tank water heaters
* Electric Tankless water heaters
* Evaporative Coolers (swamp coolers)
* Lighting (Light Fixtures, CFLs, LEDs)
* Ovens / Ranges
* Power Factor Correction Devices
* Programmable thermostats
* Refrigerators
* Roof coatings
* Room air conditioners
* TVs
* Toilets
* Window Treatments
* Whole house fans

Eligible

Tax credits are available at 30% of the cost, up to $1,500 total, in 2009 & 2010 (ONLY for existing homes, NOT new construction, that are your "principal residence") for:

· Windows and Doors (including sliding glass doors, garage doors, storm doors and storm windows)

· Insulation

· Roofs (Metal and Asphalt)

· HVAC: Central Air Conditioners, Air Source Heat Pumps, Furnaces and Boilers

· Water Heaters: Gas, Oil, & Propane Water Heaters, Electric Heat Pump Water Heaters

· Biomass Stoves

Tax credits are available at 30% of the cost, with no upper limit, through 2016 (for existing homes & new construction - it does not have to be your "principal residence," vacation homes are eligible, see this FAQ on rentals) for:

· Geothermal Heat Pumps

· Solar Panels

· Solar Water Heaters

· Small Wind Energy Systems

Tax credits are available at 30% of the cost, up to $500 per .5 kW of power capacity, through 2016 (for your existing "principal residence" or new construction that will be your principal residence, DOES NOT include vacation homes) for:

* Fuel Cells

Renters are not eligible for any of the tax credits.
Which products are NOT eligible for a tax credit?
See energystar.gov/taxcredits for details.

[blooba]

I believe they ended the federal E-Star appliance tax credit in '07 or '08 although some states and power companies may still have them in effect.

[NCLee]

The tax credit has been extended through 2010. However, do your research and figure your taxes before you consider that in your purchasing price of an applicable appliance.

We're on social security. Last fall, we bought a new furnace that qualified for a $1,500 "rebate" (that's the wording used on our invoice). Did our taxes the other day, to get them in the mail, so we could use our "rebate" to buy a generator to run the furnace when storms take out the power.

It's a tax CREDIT. Because our social security income isn't taxable, we didn't have the taxes to which we could apply the credit. If we had transferred some of our IRA savings (taxable income), we could have used the energy credit to off set some of those taxes.

As it stands right now, our "rebate" is a big fat ZERO. No refund.

Look at it this way, if you're unsure.

If you pay $500 in income taxes. You qualify for a $1,500 energy credit. Your refund will only be $500.

We were badly mislead, last fall. Don't get caught in that trap.

Lee

[used2bcool13]

Tamilee,

How may cycles does the dishwasher go throught to wash the dishes, mine has a few, the rinse/prewash then the wash then the rinse cycle. I would think there are 3-4 cycles.

[tamilee]

Originally Posted by used2bcool13

Tamilee,

How may cycles does the dishwasher go throught to wash the dishes, mine has a few, the rinse/prewash then the wash then the rinse cycle. I would think there are 3-4 cycles.

yeah, I asked myself the same thing. I think 3. I figure 6-8 gallons and I still come out ahead when my "help" lets the hot water run CONTINUOUSLY for 25-30 minutes.

[used2bcool13]

Hey, Your help must moonlight at my place, but not that often only once or twice a month.

It kills me for the water to run unnecessarily, doesn't bother the help though - lol.