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  #1  
Old 01/12/10, 04:49 PM
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Western KY
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transporting 100# propane tank "upright & vertical"

Our local dealer won't fill our 100 pound propane tank unless it is "upright and vertical" in the bed of our pickup. Another dealer (35 mi
es one way) lets us transrt it however we want but he's a long haul fo us while the other guy is just up the road. Any ideas on how to rig a rack or something out of wood? Any pictures of what you've done to keep this type tank standing during transport?

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  #2  
Old 01/12/10, 05:21 PM
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Build a set of higher sides.... it's good homesteading practice to have sideboards on your pick-up, anyway, just for hauling compost.
Install a couple heavy eye hooks in one of the corners and a chain with heavy duty clip.
If you get enough height to chain the tank firmly about three quarters of the way up the side of the tank, you're good.

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  #3  
Old 01/12/10, 07:08 PM
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IIRC, 100# tanks are about 5' tall so. . .Go to the store and buy a couple of stake pocket anchors and a ratchet strap. Install the anchors on your front two stake pockets, hook one end of the strap to an anchor, loop it around the tank, attach the other strap end to the other anchor and tighten. The strap will pull the tank into the front of the bed and the loop will prevent it from sliding from side to side.

If you aren't comfortable with that build a wooden frame to fit around the tank and ratchet strap it into the truck.

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  #4  
Old 01/12/10, 07:10 PM
 
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Law states they must be upright....

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  #5  
Old 01/12/10, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by RonM View Post
Law states they must be upright....
So!

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  #6  
Old 01/12/10, 09:15 PM
 
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I don't carry mine that way but it is the law. I have never had anybody to look at my truck bed to see if I was caring it laying down. I also either have it secured to the side so that It isn't going all over the place and if it came with a cap it is on their before I move.

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  #7  
Old 01/12/10, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by big rockpile View Post
So! big rockpile
So a person is expected to follow the law for the safety of themselves and for others. It is one thing to endanger yourself and quite another to endanger others.

If a tank "vents" laying down it will blown liquid which if very dangerous. If upright and it should vent it will only blow vapor.

In an accident such as a rear ended collision a horizontal bottle might have the valve assembly broken off---unless it is being transported correctly with the cap over it. Upright there is less chance for such valve damage as the truck would unlikely be smashed so short as to even get to the bottle.

MOST laws are made for good reason and should be observed. Sorry that I take safety to heart while you have a lackadaisical attitude toward it. Perhaps it is part because I safely operated a propane delivery truck for 7 years and can only imagine what carelessness or a cavalier attitude would have given me and perhaps others.
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  #8  
Old 01/13/10, 12:06 AM
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I dont know if I'd go as far as to say most laws are for good reason, some are because they benefitted a campaign donor, others are a knee jerk reaction to some freak event or crime, and some are from burocracy wanting to perpetuate itself and extend control. The good old USA has far more laws on the books than any other country in the world including some very totalitarian ones.

However hauling a 100# tank in an upright position is common sense whether law or not, for reasons Windy states. Its just a pain to find good way to do it without adding stuff to your truck box that then gets in way when using truck for other things.

Best way I came up with back when I used 100# bottles was to place filled bottle upright in one corner of front of pickup box, then place a 2x4 frame with a snug pocket for the bottle down over it and clamp the 2x4s to the top edge of the pickup box on both sides. Once home remove clamps and remove frame. Nothing left to interfer with other uses of the truck. Plus it held the tank upright better than single chain or strap or cable or rope. Hard to describe without a picture or drawing, but think of those old wooden pop bottle crates with little pocket for each bottle so they didnt hit against each other.

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  #9  
Old 01/13/10, 02:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windy in Kansas View Post
So a person is expected to follow the law for the safety of themselves and for others. It is one thing to endanger yourself and quite another to endanger others.

If a tank "vents" laying down it will blown liquid which if very dangerous. If upright and it should vent it will only blow vapor.

In an accident such as a rear ended collision a horizontal bottle might have the valve assembly broken off---unless it is being transported correctly with the cap over it. Upright there is less chance for such valve damage as the truck would unlikely be smashed so short as to even get to the bottle.

MOST laws are made for good reason and should be observed. Sorry that I take safety to heart while you have a lackadaisical attitude toward it. Perhaps it is part because I safely operated a propane delivery truck for 7 years and can only imagine what carelessness or a cavalier attitude would have given me and perhaps others.
I agree it is dangerous to haul propane any way you do it. But in my case with a cap on it and without a special way to secure the tank if you hit my truck enough to cause the bottle to break the top off I would be dead also and the others that hit me will be dead also. You will have to make my bed 4 foot shorter with that in mind and hauling it on a back road with nothing going over 50 miles per hour it is hard to think that would happen. I do not like to haul one upright for the reason that if I have even a slight wreck it will be unstable enough to tip out of the truck and on the highway which is more dangerous than having it horizontal. To keep the bottle from venting you need to know how to fill the tank. You only fill it with a scale to set it on and only fill it to the amount on the tank. The fill weight is stamped on the tank. And I know how to fill the tank and watch it done to my specifications and have never had one to vent on me.
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  #10  
Old 01/13/10, 06:02 AM
 
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They're supposed to be secured when hauling upright. If the top of the tank is knocked off in an accident a secured upright tank will only blow gas out the top. A horizontal tank will become a missile.

I agree that some laws are ridiculous, but this is one that makes complete sense from a safety standpoint. Figure out a way to haul them secured and upright or don't haul them.

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  #11  
Old 01/13/10, 06:03 AM
 
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Location: ozark foothills, Mo
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transport of tank

Some of us are forced into lawbreaking at times..I have hauled them laying down with bottom of bottle against the cab and valve capped to the rear..used to use a stock rack and chain 'em upright in the right front corner of the bed...Now have my own wetline on my pig at home and fill the 20 and hundred lb. bottles myself..have an adapter to fill the hand size propane bottles also...
I've seen people living in trailers that needed the hundred lb. bottles for heat, haul them anyway they could, a couple of 'em like to wore my pickup out a several winter's back as the local supplier refused to let em haul 'em in cars..which is dangerous..but NOT as dangerous as trying to stay in a housetrailer at zero with out any heat..SAD part was they could barely afford the propane, so I ended up hauling gas bottle free Gratus..didn't have the heart to tell 'em no...15 Mi. every time one of 'em run out..

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  #12  
Old 01/13/10, 06:55 AM
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The last time I had to haul one I happened to have the drawbar off my tractor already laying in the back of the truck. I dropped it down in one of the front stake pockets, used a ratchet strap to secure the the bottle to the drawbar and went to town. The ratchet strap secured the drawbar to the bottle with the pickup body sandwiched between you could not have lifted it out if you tried.

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  #13  
Old 01/13/10, 08:36 AM
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Truth I was being sarcastic.I have been trained in hauling all kinds of Hazardous Material and handling Chemicals.

And do understand Propane.But yes I'm guilty of laying Bottles down strapping them and hauling them.Just easier!

big rockpile

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  #14  
Old 01/13/10, 09:06 AM
 
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I have two different places that fill mine for me all the time and they see me secure them in the back of my truck on their side.

Find another propane dealer.

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  #15  
Old 01/13/10, 09:27 AM
 
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I do believe if I was going to be hauling 100# tanks I would buy a decent hand truck & have a way to strap the tank to the hand truck . I could then wheel the tank around wherever I wanted it . A couple wooden planks would work to wheel it in & out of the truck bed . A full 100# tank is fairly heavy . A hand truck & tank could be held in place in the front of the truck bed with a heavy duty ratchet strap . Have moved appliances & top heavy refrigerators this way many times .
That being said I once lived in a mobile home that used 100# tanks for the gas range . I hauled the tank to get it filled it the trunk of my Z28 Camero . Yes it stuck out .

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  #16  
Old 01/13/10, 10:07 AM
 
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Location: Whiskey Flats(Ft. Worth) , Tx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonM View Post
Law states they must be upright....
..........That Law seems rather Impotent , because Every Delivery Truck I've ever seen , has their tanks Horizontial !!! Just imagine delivery trucks with their 1000 gallon tanks standing straight UP crusing around making deliveries . , fordy
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  #17  
Old 01/13/10, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by big rockpile View Post
Truth I was being sarcastic.
By all means then I apologize for coming across so harshly.
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  #18  
Old 01/13/10, 11:18 AM
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Just curious, even if he did help to lay them down and secure them did he at least inform you that the law requires them to be transported upright?

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  #19  
Old 01/13/10, 11:25 AM
 
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The suburban propane trucks stack forklift tanks upright. The really huge tanks are hauled horozontal on a dedicated flatbed w/ rails that keep them onboard. Trucks powered by propane have horozontal tanks secured to the frame.

100# propane tanks are designed to be transported in a vertical position so they don't become propelled like a torpedo down the highway if the valve gets knocked off.

The DOT won't be pulling over a personal pickup but they do expect the propane supplier to inform people how to properly transport the cylinders.

Your mileage may vary but I think you will be safer to secure the tank vertical and w/ the safety cover in place.

There was a 'tube' trailer of compressed gas destroyed on the NJ Turnpike. The individual horozontal tubes shot off into the woods while spewing compressed gas. Fortunately it was helium instead of hydrogen so there wasn't a huge fireball.

Does anyone have an Oxy-Acetylene setup? The Acetylene tank needs to stay upright too. These cylinders need to be capped for transport yet alot of guys ride around w/t he gauges attached...an explosion just watiting to happen

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  #20  
Old 01/13/10, 01:01 PM
 
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wv

a friend of mine in wv say sthat the state told him he had to lay his oxy and acetaline bottles down..he was mad cause he had to move them so much. he had a welding pickup truck.......

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  #21  
Old 01/13/10, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by fordy View Post
..........That Law seems rather Impotent , because Every Delivery Truck I've ever seen , has their tanks Horizontial !!! Just imagine delivery trucks with their 1000 gallon tanks standing straight UP crusing around making deliveries . , fordy
That is because the tanks are configured differently for venting, drawing off liquid, etc.

Sort of like the T&P valve on a water heater, the vent is to be properly oriented and generally extended for safety.
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  #22  
Old 01/13/10, 01:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coup View Post
a friend of mine in wv say sthat the state told him he had to lay his oxy and acetaline bottles down..he was mad cause he had to move them so much. he had a welding pickup truck.......
Most welders know not to lay down an acetalene tank. The liquid used to pack the gas in so it is safe to compress will come out with the gas if horizontal. Manufactures tell you not to use the tank if it was moved without waiting one hour and one day of it was horizontal.
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  #23  
Old 01/13/10, 02:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Windy in Kansas View Post
That is because the tanks are configured differently for venting, drawing off liquid, etc.

Sort of like the T&P valve on a water heater, the vent is to be properly oriented and generally extended for safety.
............Windy , Thanks , I didn't know that ! I thought all tanks were welded together such that the ends would detach if the propane ignites .
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  #24  
Old 01/13/10, 05:01 PM
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I had a Guy try to get me to haul a 48 Foot trailer of Acetylene Bottles laying down.There is no way in heck I would touch it.

What gets me is I've hauled Ammonia Nitrate Placard watch where I take it and all.Then diliver it,load is broke down into smaller loads,No Placards haul the stuff anywhere they want.

Can't even haul Matches or Hair Spray without a Placard.

big rockpile

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  #25  
Old 01/13/10, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by fordy View Post
............Windy , Thanks , I didn't know that ! I thought all tanks were welded together such that the ends would detach if the propane ignites .
In the 1970s I went to a fire fighting school demonstration put on by an insurance company that was specifically telling how to deal with propane tank fires or fires near them.

For the demonstration a pipe burner several feet long was placed under a 500 gallon tank. The fuel to the burner was turned on and ignited thus heating the tank.

The pressure built within the tank until the safety vent released blowing the high pressure stream of vapor upward and into the air. A demonstrator was standing by and when the vapor didn't ignite because of being too far from the burner he ignited the stream. (Unless the propane can dissipate you don't want the vapor traveling and settling into low areas. Better it is flamed off.)

Flames were shooting about 25 feet into the air and the pressure release was so great that it roared loudly. Traffic on a nearby street came to a screeching halt in order to watch.

Men with two fire hoses using a cone spray used the water to push the under burner flames away from the valve and simply shut the fuel to the burner off. The pressure slowly died down back to near normal and when the safety valve closed the flames shooting upward ceased.

Other than the fire training the point was showing that tanks don't explode from exposure to fire, they vent off to prevent it. HOWEVER if for some reason the safety vent cannot keep up with the demand for pressure release the sound changes to a much higher pitched shrill sound and THEN you want to get as far away as fast as you can as the tank will in all likelihood explode. You are correct in that the welded ends of the tank are the weak point so you want to move in the direction away from the ends, i.e. perpendicular to the sides. Much better that the end joints don't fail and the tank simply vents excess pressure.

Propane companies will generally site their tanks so that the potential from end failure will yield the least damage to other property.

Great school training and I'd like to see it again.
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  #26  
Old 01/13/10, 07:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by coup View Post
a friend of mine in wv say sthat the state told him he had to lay his oxy and acetaline bottles down..he was mad cause he had to move them so much. he had a welding pickup truck.......
For those not aware, that is _terribly_ dangerous for the acetaline tanks. That person shoulda been turned in, and shoulda lost his job for suggesting that.

Acetaline is very very unstable, so the tank is filled with a different substance. That substance will 'absorb' the acetaline in a safe & stable way.

If the tank is stored any way _other_ than vertical, the substance will be the first to ooze out, and leave the unstable acetaline alone in the tank - very very dangerous.

If a tank is set on it's side, it takes a day for things to get back to settled down to where everything is safe to use again.

To be clear: An acetaline tank should never be anything but vertical, and don't use one for a long time if it has been on it's side. It needs to be vertical & stable. That suff is safe only when handled properly. It needs to be tucked down into the other substance that keeps it neytralized.

This has nothing to do with busting the tank or shooting around like a missle, which is another concern. It is about the way the stuff is stored inside the tank.

That sure was real bad advice your friend got from the state, don't ever follow that. Someone shoulda lost their job for that.

--->Paul
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  #27  
Old 01/13/10, 08:12 PM
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BLEVE
boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion.

The propane dealer might have been fined once for filling a bottle that a customer brought in improperly. They don't have to fill it for you, and you don't have to give them your business. Since you have a pickup, rig up a holder as mentioned.

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  #28  
Old 01/13/10, 08:20 PM
 
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Acetylene tanks contain a honeycomb structure and the liquid is Acetone. Acetone is a solvent often used in nail polish remover. This setup allows a use able amount og acetylene to be stored inthe cylinder. Simply compressing acetylene would not trap an economical amount to be useful; I thing the sublimination into Acetone allows the bottle to hold 10 times more.

Acetone is extremly flammable...but so is Acetylene...

BLEVE...I watched the training film in Flammable liquids class where the RR cars BLEVE; the instructor [at the time Bureau Chief of Emergency Response for the NJ DEP] used to tell everyone to keep an eye on the fireman near the end of the tankcar. Something like watch this guy, he's gonna die!

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  #29  
Old 01/13/10, 08:35 PM
 
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What I was taught in ag class about acetylene bottles was that a material was injected into the bottles making a Honeycomb type structure inside the bottle. This allowed the bottles to be safely filled. The bottles were then weighed at each filling to make sure this material was still inside the bottle. Laying the bottle on the side would destroy the honey comb structure inside the bottle, but it wasn't a safety problem once the bottle was filled. I've used a cutting torch more then once with the bottles laying flat on the tailgate of a pickup.

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  #30  
Old 01/13/10, 09:58 PM
 
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Storage: Because of acetylene's unstable nature, it must be stored under special conditions. This is accomplished by dissolving the acetylene in liquid acetone. The liquid acetone is then stored in the acetylene cylinder, which in turn, is filled with a porous (sponge-like) cementitious material.

----------

If you use the tank in a horizontal position, you will be drawing liquid acetone out & burning that - with some acetylene also.

Do that much, and there is less acetone in the tank, and then you have a pretty unstable gas sitting in a tank...... Not good.

Because of the honeycomb porous material, it takes a bit of time for the liquid & gas stuff to settle out & get right again. It's best to wait some time for things to settle out proper.

Actually using the tank laying down leads to some real problems.

--->Paul

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