Hay on shares problem with questions

[Jim S.]

I'd really be interested for TN and AL folks to chime in on this, but everyone is invited to let me know how it works in their area! First, the background, then the questions.

For the first 10 years on our place, we had an agreement to have the hay cut and rolled on thirds. (Cutter gets 2 of every 3 bales.) Then he started to get greedy and "joke around," trying me on about going to fourths (he gets 3; I get 1). That was the end of that, from my end.

People locally then were telling me to get it cut on halves. So I advertised it, and for the past 9 years have gotten it cut on halves. But I keep having to find a new guy every year, and sometimes every hay season (we cut spring and fall).

The last guy who cut this spring agreed BEFORE cutting my spring hay (the best crop of the two, as you know) that he'd do it in fall, but after cutting it and getting his half, he said, "Well, see if you can catch me down the road this fall, and we'll see..." Yield and quality were good, and all.

I can't risk my hay crop to "see if you can catch me" logistics, so I got another man to cut the fall crop but had to go thirds with him to do it. Now I am out to get someone again for spring.

What I am trying to figure out is, where's the rub here? My hay is of the same or better quality than anyone else's, and the same or better quantity. I do know there are a bunch of city folks who have moved here and bought land just to say they own it, with no fences, just a house. I suspect they are giving away their hay just to get it cut, whereas I need to get a share of mine, and that is the rub. Cutter keeps all theirs, only half of mine. I also know some here are renting the land out so much an acre for hay cutting.

The economics of it are, cutters charge $15-16 a bale to cut the hay here outright, no shares. You can buy a bale of hay this year for $20. Not worth it to have it cut on a per-bale charge basis.

With 15 acres to cut, it is not cost-effective for me to get the equipment to do it. I have pondered going all-pasture and buying hay, but that puts me at the mercy of the hay market as far as costs.

Sorry for the long-winded story, but it sets up the questions nicely. What arrangements do you have to get your hay cut? Is cutting on the halves going the way of the carrier pigeon? Any other ideas for getting hay cut? Or should I pasture it all and buy hay? (I hate to do that because I am bringing in weeds and thistle and all kinds of nasty stuff to my land that I have kept out so far.)

Thanks for your help and suggestions!

[TurnerHill]

Well, there is a similar thread already out here. And as you mention, your question is location-specific.

But around here, a 50-50 split usually won't happen.

I'm guessing that the "rub" is simply that you are wanting to be paid more (in hay) than the market will bear. That's tough to sustain.

[Callieslamb]

Sounds like you are competing with the 'free' folks. Maybe someone ought to whisper in their ears how much they could make off their hay.

I wish I had a good solution for you. I am in a tough spot - I only have 4 acres. A nice guy comes and bales it for me. But I have to wonder at what point he will decide it just isn't worth his time. We agreed on 50/50. Or, I can just pay him $1.25 a bale (this year). I do small bales. He even does his half in large bales and mine in the smaller ones - twice the work, if you ask me. This year, he said he needed the hay badly for all the people that have animals and no pasture. Who knows what next year will bring?

[TurnerHill]

Originally Posted by Callieslamb

Sounds like you are competing with the 'free' folks. Maybe someone ought to whisper in their ears how much they could make off their hay.

I wish I had a good solution for you. I am in a tough spot - I only have 4 acres. A nice guy comes and bales it for me. But I have to wonder at what point he will decide it just isn't worth his time. We agreed on 50/50. Or, I can just pay him $1.25 a bale (this year). I do small bales. He even does his half in large bales and mine in the smaller ones - twice the work, if you ask me. This year, he said he needed the hay badly for all the people that have animals and no pasture. Who knows what next year will bring?

No way is he breaking even on that. Bake him some cookies, or something.

[Macybaby]

I pay my neighbor to cut and bale ours. Around here 2/3 for the guy baling is the minimum you would pay. No one does it on halves.

I pay $30 per bale, and that is for 1800 lb bales. Probably too much but he is "jonny on the spot" on getting my hay in and that is important to me. He makes sure to get my hay in first - he loves getting that handful of crisp $100 bills. He does have a big operation so I bet that money isn't a big deal.

Some years it comes out good, like when hay is selling for $60 a ton and some years not so good when hay is very plentiful. The last two years I got enough off the first cutting so I let him take the second. This year that amounted to 9 bales, and that is a very good second cutting. We got 32 off the first cutting.

I am still coming out cheaper than if I had to buy the hay and have it hauled.

[oldmanriver]

I am in Ky not far from Tn I think what you are seeing is a good hay crop year or maybe 2 in a row where everyone has hay . Do you have a tractor ? You can look around and buy some good used hay equitment cheap . 2 years ago I couldn't buy hay for less than 60 dollars a round bale this yearthey are going for 20 . If I cut it rake it bale it buy string and fuel then I have about 12 dollars a bale in the hay . Not counting for my time break downs or repairs . It is a hard way to go but if you have the land and the animals you need to look into getting some of the equitment , Also if I take hay off ever year I have to at some point put something back on the land .

[Joshie]

Around here they do it for 50%. But it works better if they do it and take half then give us half. That way everyone gets half of each cutting.

They charge $1.20 to cut and bale small bales or $25 to make large, round bales.

[Curtis B]

I have had a thread on this before. I have had nothing but problems with hay people, to the point of the person this year not cutting and now will not return phone calls. I have also had the person who made a living off of people not knowing better and letting him bale it and take it all for free. I am trying to go all pasture with MIG and will buy as soon as I can get the money for more cattle. Around here it is 2/3, 1/3. It is too late for me this year, but I will not let it happen again. One lesson I have learned is you can't rely on anyone.

[TnAndy]

Just simple economics, Jim.

You say they charge 15-16 to bail, but you can buy hay for 20.....it costs them 10 bucks or more to bale.....remember, they have to cut, sometimes tedder it, rake, then bale....so that alone is 3-4 trips to your field. By the time you allow for depreciation of machinery, repairs, string/netting, fuel, etc, I'd be surprised if the guy is making minimum wage.

The 20 buck roll, the guy is doing a little better on, but ONLY if he can get the hay off someone for free.....but if it's his own, he has the added costs of property taxes, fertilizer, lime, etc.

Seems pretty simple to me....you ought to pay the going rate, then sell any excess you have, ( and you must clearly have at least 1/2 if you want to cut on shares ) and use the 4-5 bucks to offset your costs.....THAT would put you right down to actual cost of baling IF you went and bought the equipment.

Another way to go is YOU cut, tedder, rake, and the guy makes one trip to your field with the baler......they'd probably cut the price to $8/bale ( this is the route I use )

Also remember the 20 buck roll you buy, as you say, is full of God-knows-what in the way of weeds, and you'd have additional costs in fighting them.....so the 20 buck roll is more like a 25-30 buck roll in the end......and maybe you could get MORE for your hay if you market it as "Guaranteed WEED FREE".....I know I'd pay more.

[fordson major]

also be ready to accept the big bonfire in the field when the hay gets rained on way too much and so is every one elses! (our area this year, you could not give standing hay away!) the mushroom plant here usually gives $5. for a large round bale, this year you can not give them the hay! (they had enough by the first week of june for two years!)

[PNP Katahdins]

Next time, get your share of the bales out of each cutting. The guy who took all of the first cutting had no intention of coming back. That's fraud.

It has to be fair to both of you to make it work.

We graze our 40 hilly acres and buy big square bales and grain from a neighbor. We have good, dependable neighbors. Around here, they usually get four cuttings and second cut is what our sheep like the best.

Peg

[glenn amolenaar]

Because of my age I put off buying hay equipment, big mistake I had the tractor, so the mower,rake and mid-size 4X5 round baler purchased used will with one more cutting of same fields will have in my opinion will be paid for.
Yes there will be repairs and maintenance but If I had purchased newer equipment 15 years ago I would have only been paying a small amount to put up my hay. But I chose to listen to my hayman telling me how poor he was.
Glenn

[Linebacker]

Jim,
I'm in West Tn, which could still be 400 miles from you, but I'll chime in to tell you how it works with me.

Originally 3yrs ago when we bought our farm, my wife's uncle cut our hay and round baled it and we split on 1/3s him 2 to our 1. This was the second cutting. The previous owners had already harvested the spring cutting. Wife's uncle had to go 15 miles out of their way just to get to our place, and refused to take a 3 to 1 split I offered them because they cut everybody else's on 1/3s. They did it as a favor the first year and gave us the names of a few more people who cut/bale hay on our side of the town. We payed $2.50 a square bale the next spring and kept all the hay the second spring cutting and couldn't find anyone available for a fall cutting. I bush hogged it last Oct. I had to have it cut as was really tired of messing with the local hay people. Don't get me wrong they were busy with established customers and fescue hay for their cattle. I have bermuda mainly on my second cutting. I admire these people both for their loyalty and their work ethic, but this would always leave me for when they had time they would. This year I was lucky enough to find two young men in their upstart into the hay and cattle business who live a stone throw away from me. They cut in on halves and I could not be happier. The spring cutting was a disaster for them, if it could break it broke. They had to rake the twenty acres 3 times before they could get it baled (square bales). They had baler problem, tractor problems, mower problems, twine problems you name it and Murphy was kicking them in the butt with it. They never quit and worked until the job was done. That was the only week of the entire year we didn't have rain. They came back this fall and had virtually no problems at all and sold their 50% of bales right out of my field and recouped some of the losses they incurred on the first cutting. I'm on the top of their list and for two cutting from now on and have gotten them two new customers from friends of mine. Hopefully you can find someone to cut yours and both of you be happy.

I'm sure some like with anything take advantage of people. I think its important to understand that some are truly busy and have a customer base they are loyal to as well as their need for a particular product.

I hope you find someone who's a match for both of you.

Brad

[sheepish]

If cutting hay on small acreages payed well, there would be dozens of farmers breaking down the door of every smallholder in the county, begging them for the work. If there aren't in your area, there is only one reason.

[Harry Chickpea]

Here in northwest AL, hay has glutted the market and fewer people appear to be keeping stock. The fellow who used to do our fields has about 1000 round bales sitting around, and I haven't seen him here for three cuttings, so now I'm looking at bush-hogging, cattle or goats, and a $3000 investment (which I don't have easily available) in fence plus labor to do animals.

As I drive around, I'm seeing first cut hay bales sitting in the middle of overgrown fields, rows of last years hay bales by the sides of fields and near barns, and some fields that haven't been cut this year at all. Not good, as thistle and mint and Johnson grass are making seed. Anyone with hay is glad to sell at $20. Some of last year's hay may have cost that much or more to take off the field.

[rambler]

Years ago the 50-50 worked well.

The last 4 years or so, both fuel & twine prices have been on a rollercoaster with a lot of high spots - makes it hard to come out on 50-50 any more. Machinery parts have gone through the roof, steel proces have been mostly up & manufaturers are charging more for parts - sometimes a lot more.

Poor ecconomy & issues with what to do with older horses any more has lead to a softer market for hay in general - less demand. It's not worth as much to bale & store, when you don't know what the market will be.

Local conditions with good (or bad) hay making conditions can amplify the desire to make or not make hay on shares.

For example, if a person often sells 2000 bales a year, and had a good hay making year last year with bales left over; now a couple of his customers sold their horses & he's having another really good first cutting - his barns are probably full of hay, and no idea if he will even sell that much.

Makes him shy away from coming & making the 2nd cutting - where does he put it, what does he do with it?

No, that isn't fair to you if you had an agreement to do the hay 50-50. But - look at it from his point of view and at least you can see where he is coming from, even if he is not in the right to leave you hanging.

In those conditions, you might need to pay cash for the baling, keep all the bales yourself, and get into selling the extra yourself. If that doesn't appeal to you - well, again you can then see how things are from his side of the issue.

--->Paul

[agmantoo]

Jim S.
Can I assume that you are in zone 7? That being the case you are missing a great opportunity to do rotational grazing and to fix your baling problem all in one. Why so many folks in mild climates go to the effort, expense and frustration to bale is hard for me to understand. Additionally, you are giving away a lot of nutrient when someone bales on shares. That nutrient is best left on your place. If rotational grazing interests you I will help you get underway. Moving away from conventional methods of feeding over Winter has been the most cost effective change that I have ever made.

[texican]

Local craigslist has multiple offers each week.... free hay... you cut and haul away.

Hard to compete with free.

Most of the relatives and folks I know cutting hay, don't do 'it' for a living... they have regular jobs and cut hay for themselves, and others when they can (and have nothing that needs doing on their own farms). Folks get busy.

Short of having your own cutter, rake, and baler, you're at other folks mercy... simple equation, as long as you have a sack of cash. If not, you're in the same boat you're in now... hoping someone will cut it when it needs it.

Good luck... been there, done that.

[Callieslamb]

Originally Posted by TurnerHill

No way is he breaking even on that. Bake him some cookies, or something.

Yep...he just kind of fits me in whenever he is in the neighborhood. I imagine it will last as long as he needs hay badly. He is also helping me re-plant my fields into something more useful for us both.

[RosewoodfarmVA]

First off I'd second the rotational grazing. But I sell some hay and feed hay too and this is the deal around here. There's soo much untended land that it can be had for little to nothing. I'm tending 20 acres up the road for hay with a handshake agreement. I fertilize it and it's mine free. He's not picky about how much I fertilize only said "the more you put down the more hay you get." Another man currently has a friend cutting his 20+ acres (free) but told me that before his friend started (he's been cutting it for years) he tried several times to lease it for $10 an acre and couldn't get anyone interested. One fellow did pay him $10 an acre for 3 or 4 years but put down no fertilizer and when the hay reverted to weeds and broomstraw just quit renting it anymore.

Now realize that you can get 5 or 6 rolls to the acre and rent land for free or $10 an acre and you'll understand that no farmer is going to want to cut on halves when he can cut free hay and keep it all. Even at rents of $10 to $20 an acre he's still much better off than halves or 2/3. The people that have been cutting your hay probably considered they were doing you a favor, rather than a business deal.