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  #1  
Old 09/08/09, 03:32 PM
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Question Turning off the hot water heater question

Maybe a stupid question, but here goes. Will I wear out my hot water heater by shutting the fuse off and on once a day. Its just Dh and I at home and it seems wasteful to heat water all day long. I shower once a day in summer, maybe every other day in winter, he showers less. And I do the dishes myself, could just heat a bit of water on the stove for those times.
I have already purchased a grey box timer for the water heater, but don't want to call an electrician until I have a few small projects lined up and the money saved to pay for them Thanks in advance. Mary.

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  #2  
Old 09/08/09, 03:38 PM
 
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Probably not. But you will see an increase in electricity useage.

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  #3  
Old 09/08/09, 03:44 PM
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Really? Does it take more energy to turn it on once a day than to keep it on all day and night? I hadn't figured that part out. If thays true than those timer boxes will cost money not save it. Mary.

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  #4  
Old 09/08/09, 03:47 PM
 
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A water heater t stat keeps your water ( if state mandated ) at 130 f . It may be cheaper to maintain it than re heat each time .

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  #5  
Old 09/08/09, 03:50 PM
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It takes less energy to reheat than it does to maintain.

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  #6  
Old 09/08/09, 03:54 PM
 
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A lot of it depends on how well your wh is insulated and its location. When you turn it off, it starts cooling down. How fast it cools down is the determining factor in your electrical useage. One could install one of the wh blankets and off set the cool down time. One more thing to consider is the cutoff temp (how hot your wh is set).

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  #7  
Old 09/08/09, 05:03 PM
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In the summer in Louisiana, my hot water stays hot - the heater is in an un- airconditioned kitchen next to the refridgerator - for a whole week, after turning the heat on for an hour on Sundays. When I started doing this, the bill plumeted; from $32/month to a few dollars (I can't tell exactly b/c the gas and electric are charged together - the overall bill went down an avg. of 32. Hope this helps! It is a 9 yr old insulated tank from Loews. ldc

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  #8  
Old 09/08/09, 05:18 PM
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I have a pretty large water heater. HD's top of the line. I have a timer that goes on in the AM for 3 hours =/-. Living alone, it is enough for the whole day & night - showers & laundry included. Dishes daily by hand. When I want to do a tub jacuzzi, I turn it on before hand though.

Works for me... I think I save electricity.

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  #9  
Old 09/08/09, 05:27 PM
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We just turned ours down. Got it to where it was hot to the touch with the hot water on only, and left it there. We have a family of 5, and we use less than 8 therms per month, and we cook everyday.

We did the whole go without in the summer time, just turned it off, and only saved about 1 therm, that was last year. So not worth it for us.

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  #10  
Old 09/08/09, 08:04 PM
 
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The water heater itself won't care, but most circuit breakers are not meant to be used as switches, and will fail under daily use.

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  #11  
Old 09/08/09, 10:05 PM
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We took out our leaking gas hot water heater about three months ago and haven't replaced it yet. At first we were going to replace the heater immediately but it was going to take a couple weeks to arrange everything. In the meantime, we discovered that even without a water heat, the water from the cold water tap comes out of the pipes hot enough for the two of us to take daily showers. Meanwhile, our gas bill plummeted to levels we never saw. So, we decided to see how long we can go without the hot water heater.

So far, the only time I need to supplement the water from the tap is for dishes; I boil a couple pots of water and it works out fine.

Come cooler weather, we definitely will need a hot water heater but it's been a grand experiment. We will probably start turning off the heater for the summer and enjoy those low gas bills while we can.

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Old 09/08/09, 10:13 PM
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My father introduced me to 6 gallon point of demand 120v water heaters when I was a teenager to provide instant hot water. When I bought this house, my ex wanted instant hot water at the kitchen sink so I installed one under the sink. After my divorce, I installed another in the bathroom to the sink and shower and now only turn the elements on the 50 gallon tank when I decide to use the tub for a jacuzzi soak instead of a navy shower with my low flow shower head.

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  #13  
Old 09/09/09, 12:12 AM
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Next time, get an "on demand" hot water heater.

We maintain two homes. At our ranch, we have a propane hot water heater, and there is a control on the front that we turn to "off when we leave, so we aren't heating water when we aren't there. When we replace this one, it will be with a propane "on demand" heater.

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  #14  
Old 09/09/09, 02:30 AM
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I wired in a fuse box at the heater and I flip the handle when I want hot water. Leave on about an hour or so and is good for about 2 days or so...I live alone. Heater is wrapped in one of those insulatin blankets... .been doing this about 10yrs, water heater still works just fine. 10yrs ago when I did the figuring it dropped the bill about $50. Only thing gotta remember last time you turned it on or makes for a 'cool' shower.

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  #15  
Old 09/09/09, 05:35 AM
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We did this too when there was only 2 of us. The water in the tank stays hot for hours. We would flip if off after our shower at night and turn it back on when we got home from work. Saved lots of money and we always had hot water.

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  #16  
Old 09/09/09, 05:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katey View Post
The water heater itself won't care, but most circuit breakers are not meant to be used as switches, and will fail under daily use.

Yep, you're better off to either put a disconnect at the water heater or put it on a timer. Don't use the breaker to turn it on and off every day.
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Old 09/09/09, 06:09 AM
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I worked with a guy who was single. He wired a motion detector in his house that would shut off the T-stat on his water heater when he wasn't there.

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  #18  
Old 09/09/09, 07:03 AM
 
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You will save some electricity, and it absolutely will not use more electricity by putting it on a timer. If you have a newer heater, the savings are not as large as you might think because they are so well insulated now. I would guess that your savings will be in the $5/mo range. The best way to save on hot water costs is to just use less hot water.

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  #19  
Old 09/09/09, 08:06 AM
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All good advice, this is what I was looking for. I certainly don't want to cause more damage to fix. My water heater has an insulating blanket over it and it is 40 gals. I have heard about the on demand heaters, they are quite expensive, so I wouldn't get one unless my old working heater really died. I can't afford to replace a working unit with a new one. But I will have the timer box put on when ever it is convenient. Its hard to use less hot water than we do, I take five minute showers now anyway, and wash dishes by hand. thanks everyone. Mary.

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  #20  
Old 09/09/09, 03:29 PM
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There are electric on demand water heaters, I have one. I like it, works well, and no big ol' can of water cooling down and reheating.

Takes a 50 amp DP breaker and 0 gauge wire. Highly recommend one.

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  #21  
Old 09/09/09, 08:59 PM
 
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ok, when i was single (used hot water only in the morning to shower and again at night) my bill ran round $38/month...(boy were they the good old days!!!???). i installed a timer with on times just enough to supply needs...my bill dropped to $18.00 per month.

harder to do now, wife wants hot water when she wants hot water.

insulate tank, pipes, turn water temp down to lowest possible, if you can get you household on a schedule you will save....doesn't X10 have some remote control stuff for waterheaters?

i think most studies indicate that the tankless are not money savers unless house has long pipe runs on uninsulated and non looped plumbing. (i think plumbers have forgotten about looped hot water lines) anyway the advantage of tankless is almost instant hot water instead of waiting for non looped hot water..

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  #22  
Old 09/10/09, 05:19 AM
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My dad used to only turn his water heater on for 3 hours a day. His electric bill dropped by $30 a month

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  #23  
Old 09/10/09, 09:36 AM
 
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I've done the math on all of this. I'll give a brief summary in a bit, but first-

Circuit breakers. I've heard the "you'll wear out the breaker by using it as a switch" BS for years. If it wears out, it is because it is a cheap breaker. It is common practice in movie theatres that at the end of the night every breaker in the projection booth gets turned off. In a multiplex there can be ten or more breaker boxes, EACH of which contain over twenty breakers. I've been in theatres that are twenty years old or more and still using the original breakers, with those breakers having been flipped twice a day every day for those twenty years. Considering the numbers of theatres and the THOUSANDS of breakers and the number of years in the business, I can say without reservation that flipping breakers has next to no impact on the lifespan. What DOES wear out breakers is a circuit that is overloaded enough that the breaker trips fairly regularly due to an overload condition. That causes the breaker to be operating in an environment where it is extremely hot. If you feel a panel and one or more breakers is actively hot, you have a possible danger that should be investigated.

Water heaters (electric) Consider:
The immersed electric elements are almost exactly 100% efficient at heating the water.
The ONLY savings that you can get are from reducing the wasted heat through the insulation and the pipes, and by reduction in usage.

TURNING A HEATER BELOW 130 DEGREES MAKES IT A BREEDING GROUND FOR SOME BACTERIA, INCLUDING LEGIONNAIRES DISEASE.

Cycling a heater on and off will cause the metal to expand and contract. This puts stress on the welds and may shorten the lifespan of the heater. The effect isn't large in a new heater, but in an older one, where corrosion has already started, it can be an issue.

I did my calculations based on a 40 gallon electric water heater. I make no claims about gas heaters, because I didn't do the calcs on them. To start - for the two of us, measuring our total usage over a period of time, I found we used $1 worth of heated water per day for washing, laundry, showers, etc.. That figure is fairly consistent with the yellow stickers on new heaters. Since it was by actual measurement, it takes into account all losses from "wasted" heat. Total cost of hot water per year - about $365. With me so far?

That figure is with the heater turned to 160 degrees, which is a safe water temperature. Anyone who has worked in the food industry and taken safety courses already knows that food should never be stored between 55 and 155 degrees. Water, unless it is distilled or dosed with chemicals, has bacteria, and water tanks act as settling tanks where masses of the bacteria can live in any organic matter that settles out.

For safety, the safest way to handle heated water is to have it very hot until it gets to the faucet. On mixing faucets, there is an often anti-scald component that can be set to keep the temperature in a safe range. Better yet, there are mixing valves that can be installed before the faucet to lower the temperature just before it hits the tap. Otherwise, a single mixing valve on the output line of the tank keeps the water going to all taps safe, while keeping the water in the tank at a temperature that will inhibit bacteria growth.

Now, on savings. There are three concepts to be aware of.

1. Is the heat really wasted? If you heat with electrical resistance heat (Eden-Pure heater, ceramic electric heater, quartz heater, electric baseboards) and your heater is in the heated area of the house, your "waste" heat goes to heating the house and you save exactly ZERO by fiddling with timers or insulation. In other situations, the heat may be being used to prevent pipes from freezing. Even if you heat by other methods, during the winter, waste heat from the heater is not a 100% loss, but reduces heating costs slightly.

2. Usage. Here is a quicky question - Which uses more energy? A ten minute shower at 100 degrees when the water heater is turned to 120 degrees, or a ten minute shower at 100 degrees when the water heater is turned to 160 degrees?

The answer - they both use exactly the same amount of energy!. When the heater is turned to a lower temperature, the mixer valve at the shower has to mix MORE hot water with the cold water to get the 100 degree desired temperature.

If you do not change your habits of water usage, the only effects of turning your heater down is a reduction in the capacity of how much heated water is available at a set temperature, an increase in the change of harboring bacteria, and a slight reduction in heat lost through the pipes and insulation around the tank.

3. Delta T. Delta T is the difference in temperature between the ambient air temperature and the temperature of the water that has been heated in your tank. Delta for difference, T for temperature. Why is this important? It dictates the effectiveness of insulation.

If you insulate between a pipe carrying 70 degree water and the ambient air, which is 71 degrees, you are wasting your money. The cost of insulation will far outweigh any savings over your lifetime. On the other hand, if you insulate between a tank of water at 160 degrees and a 40 degree crawl space, your insulation will save you a lot of money.

What many people forget is that in a tank that is turned on and off, the water in the lower part of the tank isn't heated at all. Open up the inspection panels and use a non-contact thermometer to prove this to yourself. Water stratifies according to heat. Hot water is less dense and floats towards the top. Cold water sinks.

In ANY electric water heater, insulation below about the lower element point of the tank wall does nothing to save money. Insulation on the TOP of the tank has the greatest effect. HOWEVER, tank manufacturers now insulate tanks better (Federal standards and all that) so that adding insulation to the tank itself is generally not worth the money. Similarly, cutting off the power to any of the newer, better insulated tanks saves little. I did the computations on insulation, usage, and timers and Delta T on the tank in our house in Florida and found that the $40 for a timer box would take over four years to break even in savings. Adding insulation to the tank was even worse, with a payback of six years. Part of this is the simple fact that the insulated surface area of a tank is very small. There is little opportunity for heat to transfer out of the tank compared to the heat in a house transferring out to a freezing day. The tank may have a surface of less than sixteen square feet, whereas even a small house may have over a thousand square feet of walls, and a ceiling of eight hundred or more square feet.

What I found WOULD save money is insulating the first four feet of pipe coming out of the hot pipe from the tank. That water there is the hottest water, and uninsulated pipe is an effective radiator. That much pipe insulation was cheap, and the payback was on the order of four months.

Understand that with a total cost of $365/yr for hot water, the maximum of about 10% savings if the tank and lines were perfectly insulated would be less than $40. The cost of a single doctor visit, due to a waterborne disease would be double that.

If you want to save money on water, there are some easy and inexpensive methods that are far more effective and safe. Invest in a low flow showerhead. Some of them are VERY good. Reach under the kitchen sink and turn the cutoff valve on the hot water line so that the hot water doesn't come rushing out when the tap is on full. Yeah, it'll take a little longer to fill the sink, but on those times when the tap is just running, it'll save money. Take shorter showers. Use cold or cool water in laundry.

The intentions that folks have for saving money on hot water are good, but the physics of the newer water systems are already so good that adding timers or insulation or lowering the temperature of the tank are only minimally effective. In the older systems, yeah, there may have been some savings.

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  #24  
Old 09/10/09, 10:26 AM
 
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Harry,
Your understanding and mine on the manner a water heater functions differ.
Your statement....."What many people forget is that in a tank that is turned on and off, the water in the lower part of the tank isn't heated at all. Open up the inspection panels and use a non-contact thermometer to prove this to yourself. Water stratifies according to heat. Hot water is less dense and floats towards the top. Cold water sinks."
Yes the water will stratify. The incoming cold water is directed (piped) to the bottom of the heater. However, if the water in the top of the water heater is above the setting for the top thermostat the arrangement of the thermostats will shift the power to the lower unit and heat that water to the lower thermostat setting. The lower heating unit is the primary heater! The upper heating unit is used to temper the outgoing water when the water heater is delivering more hot water than the water heater can provide. When there is no water extracted from the water heater, the water in the lower portion of the water heater will become heated, though not as high a temperature as that in the upper portion of the tank. Insulating the entire tank would have merit. The manner in which the hot water piping exits the water heater and connects to the house plumbing will impact the heat loss. In most instances the hot water piping will rise above the water heater. IMO this is a plumbing short coming. If the hot water lines are plumbed to exit downward the length of the water heater and then distributed, the plumbing will stop the thermal siphoning of the heat from the top of the water heater and the lines are much easier to efficiently insulate. I can go to nearly any hot water heater and place my hand to the discharge pipe when no hot water is being used and the pipe will the hot.

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  #25  
Old 09/10/09, 10:54 AM
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Hey.

I would figure you will blow the fuse once-in-a-while with turning it on and off every day...no biggie, just have some spares.

I also would figure you electric tank heating elements may burn out a little faster with all the heating and cool down cycles they will go thru with turning it off every night.

RF

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Old 09/10/09, 11:20 AM
 
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Harry, I don't agree with you about hot water temperature being necessary for safety from bacterial contamination. If that were the case, why do millions of people on un-chlorinated well water not get sick from drinking the cold water from their taps that has been sitting in a large pressure tank at room/outside temperature?

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Old 09/10/09, 11:26 AM
 
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Oh and in regards to the breaker/fuse issue, breakers are rated by the manufacturer for switch duty if they are able to be used routinely as a switch. Usually higher quality breakers will have this rating, for example the Square D QO breakers I have in my home are switch duty rated. So, you should check with the manufacturer of your breakers to see if they are switch duty rated. If you have a fuse, there is no reason that the fuse would blow when the heater was re-connected (there is no high starting current like a motor), but you should not use the fuse itself as a switch, as the contacts in the socket will wear/burn out from the arcing.

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  #28  
Old 09/10/09, 04:52 PM
 
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This has been talked about several times. Here's one thread to look at. About half way down on the second page, I did some calculations. If you have an old water heater, then a timer can save you some money.

Turning the heater on and off isn't going to wear it out any faster. With only one cycle a day, it will take many years, if at all.

Michael

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  #29  
Old 09/10/09, 05:12 PM
 
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cfabe, you are correct on the breaker quality issue, but we found that most suppliers will hedge bets and not own up to the breakers being "switch" rated. I also agree 100% on the fuse issue.

As to why cold water isn't as much an issue with bacteria - a couple of reasons. Bacterial growth is not fast in low temperature water. If there is sufficient flow, the amount of bacteria remains low enough to not be a problem. We all ingest bacteria in water. Our immune systems handle a small amount comfortably. It is only when the levels get to large that it can't cope (although people who live in squalid third world conditions do either develop a stronger system or die). If the water is stagnant and lukewarm, it is much more of an issue because growth is faster. In the past cholera and typhoid and "summer fever" were deadly to a lot of people on home water supplies. One of my grandmothers died from such a situation, as have countless others. It is one of the reasons I use a Berkey and chlorinate the water in our cistern.

Agmantoo, you too are correct (lots of smart folks around here). The upper element is fired first (this gives the "quick recovery" boost that allows electric to compete with gas), then the upper element is powered off and the lower element engaged (this cutting off of the top element also allows a smaller gauge wire and smaller breaker than would otherwise be required) , dip tube, thermal siphoning breaker (can be as simple as an upward pipe out of the tank going into a 180 degree bend that goes back down a few inches. Yep. Good stuff. Insulate that thermal break and you're good to go.

Even when the lower element has finished cooking the water, the very bottom of the tank (below the bottom element) is still cooler than the main tank. There is a little convection current that helps out, and a little radiation from the heated water above, but the top is still where the bulk of the heat pools and heat loss occurs. In a case where the heater is being powered on for only a short period (20 minutes or less) the bottom element likely won't engage at all, so the top will be hot, the bottom half at ambient or incoming temperature. Failure of elements depends on usage patterns. Some folks have the top element burn out first, but most regular users lose the bottom one a little sooner, IIRC.

...which reminds me. When talking insulation, the difference between a tank temp of 160 and 130 compared to the outside temp really is almost insignificant. It is only a drop of 30 degrees behind a layer of insulation. Remember that a lot of the "common knowledge" on the subject got its start in the Jimmy Carter "energy crisis" and has been held on to since then as Gospel, even though insulating techniques have been improved. Even back then, a lot of the exercise was simply hype to make people feel good about doing something to "save" energy.

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  #30  
Old 09/11/09, 08:29 AM
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I already own the timer, got it on clearance for 10$ or so, and I have already insulated the heater and nearby pipes. My heater is located in a cellar with a dirt floor and mud, brick and block walls. The cellar stays between 40 and 70 degrees year round, my gas furnace is located there, maybe that's why its warm. As I think about it now, the heater has its own small fuse box with two big ol' breakers in it. The box is in the cellar. The other breaker connects to the barn 100 feet away and runs an occassional light bulb. The cellar fuse box is connected to the main breaker box, which was completely replaced and updated last year. So I think there would be no overload on the wiring or fuse. So.... I am thinking about throwing the switch in the cellar until I need hot water, which is not often. Thanks for all your help. I am in a serious money crunch right now. There is no where else to cut back so I have to do anything I can. Mary.

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