Re-mining old strip mines

[Joshie]

Anyone have any experience with (short term, like less than 5 years) mining for coal fine out of very old strip mines?

What info would you want to know about such a deal? What contingencies would you insist upon? What is the dust, noise, and general yuck of such an operation?

[texican]

The money would have to be great enough for me to be able to pull up stakes and start completely over, debt free.

Nothing about mining is nice and pleasant, unless it's several states away. Noise, dust, vibrations (small earthquake type shaking), lights 24/7, basically imho, like living in downtown Beirut, except no one is shooting at you.

I'd want a contract, and a bond to ensure they return the land to it's prior condition. [good luck... it'll never be the same] Kiss any creeks or springs goodybe. The contract would include several suitcases full of money. My aggravation fee is very high, and the nearest mine around is here is about 8 miles as the crow flies, and it's pretty irritating.

[BeagleMommy]

I wouldn't want it to near home, for sure. I can hear the vent fan for an underground mine from inside my house with the windows closed and it's 5-7 miles away.
Strip mining is, of course, different, but no more pleasant IME.
Around here, the reclamation companies are going broke left and right and leaving the land unreclaimed. There is a federal fund to cover that, but can you guess how speedy that is?
I'd talk to a good coal attorney.

[Va. goatman]

That's how I got where I'm at today I sold my place in Wise Co. to a coal Co. They wanted to give me $1 per ton but I told them no they'd have to buy it all and I'd move It took them a month or so but they gave me what I wanted and I moved here and started over that was Oct. of 92 I ended up with a way better house a new truck and some money left over but I don't have as much land I went from 43 acres to 22 but it's all paid for

[Joshie]

They are offering $1 a ton. It would be enough money to have us be totally debt free, purchase another place if we wished, and live off the money. They are talking about a very short term re-mining of old strip mine. They are basically going after what was thrown in a pit from strip mining more than 50 years ago. The land is beautiful now; it's reclaimed strip mining land and there is a beautiful creek running through the land. What they're offering is far more than the worth of the land. What would you ask for the the coal if you were offered $1/ton?

[BeagleMommy]

This is from the BeagleDaddy -

I am an inspector with the Ky Division of Mine Reclamation and Enforcement. I have been with this agency for about 4 years now, so I will try to answer from that perspective.

I assume from your post that what we are talking about is a coal slurry recovery operation. At some point in the past, a coal prep plant was operated on or near your property and the slurry (water and coal waste mix) was pumped into open air impoundments and covered after it dried. Older prep plants were relatively to extremely inefficient and often wasted a lot of recoverable coal. I assume that what the company is proposing is to come in, remove the cover from these old slurry impoundments, and either process the waste to remove recoverable coal or else just sell the waste as fuel. I have never inspected a slurry recovery operation personally, but it should not be as bad as a regular surface mine (no blasting to worry about, for instance). I would also assume that it should go faster than a regular surface mining operation.

However, I've also seen a lot of "gotcha's" related to mining, especially if you've never dealt with a coal company before:
1. Is slurry actually to be recovered from your property? I have seen many cases in which property owners have signed a lease and then found out that their property is where the spoil piles, topsoil storage, sediment basins, shop, bathhouse or other support facilities will go. NO COAL RECOVERY ON YOUR PROPERTY = NO ROYALTY PAYMENTS, and the coal company will not come out and tell you this unless you ask (and maybe not then). One way you can find out about this is to contact the regional office of your coal mining regulatory agency. In Illinois, I believe that would be the Office of Mines and Minerals. Slurry recovery should require a surface mining permit from them. They should have a copy of the permit application with maps. If you can figure out where your property is on the map, the Mining and Reclamation Plan Map (MRP Map) will show where the various mine support areas and slurry recovery areas will be.

2. I would want to know if the slurry is to be processed on site. Coal processing plants can be noisy, have lights going 24 hrs a day, and can create water quality issues.

3. As far as dust, noise, etc. ALL coal mining operations have these problems. A good operator will try to keep the disturbance to a minimum, but anybody who tells you that you won't be bothered by equipment noise, backup alarms, dust in the summer or coal trucks on the roads is LYING TO YOU.

4. If you have any special requirements such as restoration of boundary markers or fences once the mining is over, or you want a lake left in a certain location and certain dimensions, or something like that - MAKE SURE THAT IS SPELLED OUT EXACTLY IN THE LEASE. If it is not, it may very well not happen. If it is in the lease agreement and the company does not do it, then you have some legal recourse and may be able to make them do it through the courts.

5. Be aware that your state and federal regulatory agencies enforce the laws and regulations on the books regarding coal mining, BUT THEY DO NOT ENFORCE THE TERMS OF YOUR LEASE WITH THE COAL COMPANY. If you lease your property to be mined, you need to be proactive and stay in contact with the coal company (preferably the mine superintendent rather than somebody farther removed from the actual operation). Don't pester them and make them mad, but you need to keep a handle on what is going on or your property may not get put back the way you wanted/agreed to.

6. Remember that mining will degrade the quality of your land. It is possible to make some royalty money and come out OK, but some people seem to expect to get that money and then have the land back exactly as it was before mining. THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN IN THE REAL WORLD. I would suggest contacting your local regulatory agency and ask them about the company. Try to talk to an inspector that has other mines that this company operates and ask them how their reclaimed ground looks. If this company has a history of poor reclamation or lots of regulatory compliance issues, you may want to think twice. Some companies do really good reclamation, but others have look at reclamation as an unimportant and expensive headache that comes up after the profitable part (mining) is over with and the money is short. Just remember to keep your eyes open and do not sign a lease unless you are really comfortable with the terms.

I hope that helps...

[Joshie]

Originally Posted by BeagleMommy

This is from the BeagleDaddy -

I am an inspector with the Ky Division of Mine Reclamation and Enforcement. I have been with this agency for about 4 years now, so I will try to answer from that perspective.

I assume from your post that what we are talking about is a coal slurry recovery operation. At some point in the past, a coal prep plant was operated on or near your property and the slurry (water and coal waste mix) was pumped into open air impoundments and covered after it dried.
I hope that helps...

It does. Thanks! Our land is a reclaimed strip mine. It was last mined more than 50 years ago. Our hay field was where they threw coal fine (what they are calling pieces of coal less than 2" in diameter). That's what they want. They wish to drill core samples and then pay us for the estimated coal load after the core sample drilling. Our barn was the office when the place was mined. A gentleman who used to work for the mining company (and doesn't know about this new proposal) stated that the waste was placed in what is now our hay field. A lake would be nice but I'd rather have our hay field restored when this is done.

Would there be wiggle room in their offer? Would it be possible at all for us to live at the place? Do they always work all night long? They say that they would drill the core samples, pay us based on the core sample estimate, get permits (which they expect to take about 9 months), and then start mining. They are proposing a lease. They say that they will pay us up front based on the core sample estimates. Does that sound reasonable?

If such an operation offers $1/ton are they usually willing to actually pay a little more than that? If their estimates are accurate this is much more than the actual value of the land. Why do they wish to do these short term leases? What do I have to worry about as far as safety issues? We have a well, creek, and neighbors with the same. Our youngest child is 11.

[BeagleMommy]

BeagleDaddy again -

OK. I think I am a little more clear on your situation. They are still doing coal waste recovery on you property, but they are recovering fines instead of slurry. My comments from the previous post still apply, I think.

To start with, I do not feel competent to advise you on the financial part of this because I just don't have a lot of contact with that end of things in my job. It does seem odd that they told you they would pay up front (and for an estimate!). I've never heard of such an arrangement. I would talk to other local people that have had coal leases with the companies in your area. They can tell you how they were treated and may be willing to tell you what they were offered for their coal. In our area, we have several small engineering firms that do a lot of the permitting work and some of the exploration for the coal companies. If this is the situation where you are, you might want to consider talking to or hiring one of them to advise you. You might also want to talk to an attorney that specializes in coal leases.

It should be possible to live on the farm while it is mined, but you may not enjoy it much. Some mines run 24 hours a day, some only run one or two shifts. It depends on the company, the quality of the coal, and how badly they need it. You will need to be prepared to deal with heavy equipment noises, backup alarms, lights, dust and coal trucks on the roads for as many hours a day as the mine operates. I know of cases where property owners have signed off on waivers to mine within 50 ft of their house. I know of other cases where people hundreds or thousands of feet away constantly call and complain because they can't deal with these issues. I'm not trying to scare you off, but I do want to make sure that you have thought all of this through before you decide one way or the other.

Another question is exactly what areas of your farm do they propose to disturb and how much of it will be disturbed at any given time? Do you have enough room to keep dogs, livestock, and kids secured away from the mining areas? Will any structures, water tanks, drainage tiles in the field, etc be mined through? If so, you need to have the lease worded so that the company is responsible for replacement of those items.

If you want your hay field restored as is, you need to think about how this would be done. They will be removing material from underneath the field and only replacing some of it. This will change the topography (or at least has the potential to). In Western Ky, typically a company will start a pit and then advance in the direction they want to mine, filling in behind them as they go. If there is not enough material left at the end to give the land a reasonable shape (as is often the case), the company will attempt to obtain a permit revision to leave the final pit as a lake and let it rain full. If this happens on your farm, you will be left with a smaller field. If you are OK with that, that is fine. If not, you need to have your lease specify that no pits or impoundments are to be left on your property.

As far as the well and the creek, are they planning on mining through either one? If not, they should be OK. State and Federal laws and regulations require that if a mine reduces the quality or quantity of water in your well, they have to either replace the well or arrange for an alternate water supply. If they are going to mine through the well, make sure that the lease agreement specifies that they will replace it with a well that is at least as good as the one they destroyed.

If you think you see a pattern here, you are right. Make sure that EVERYTHING that is important to you is spelled out EXACTLY in the lease agreement. This is a legal contract between you and the coal company and is something you can take to court if you need to. The person negotiating the lease my be honest, but he may not and he may not be around when it comes time to reclaim your property. The upshot of all this is that you need to assume that any agreement that is not in writing will not be honored. That may not be fair to the coal company you are dealing with, but it is the only way to make sure that you don't get burned in the end.

[tamsam]

Here most mines are getting up to 100 dollars a ton. Kinda high but with fuel prices what can you do? Good luck. Sam

[Joshie]

We're going to let them see if do tests to estimate the amount of coal that's in there. We'll make a decision about whether or not to allow it after that point. The thing is.....we don't think we'd be able to live there during the mining and we're not sure our neighbors would wish for us to live there afterwards either!

[Michael W. Smith]

The only thing that bothers me is that they would pay you for the estimated tons there. Around here, they pay for actual tonnage, not some kind of estimate. And I'm guessing they would estimate it to be lower than it is so they make out on the deal.

Here in PA, we have many places that were strip mined many years ago - and the coal companies at that time didn't reclaim - they mined the coal and then left - leaving very large spoil piles. But with new laws and regulations, they have to reclaim it and get it "back to normal".

Just be aware that the soil on top of the ground of your hayfield may end up 2' below the surface and you can expect rocks, etc. If you do this stripped, I'd make sure the company applies lots of fertilizer to the new site.

It sounds like though it would be a fairly short-term operation, so although your lives would be upset for a short period, the rewards could be great. You have to determine if it's worth it or not.