Running Power and Water to Barn

[cfabe]

We moved to a our homestead last year and it has a barn about 350 feet from the house. We're going to be getting chickens this year so one of my spring projects will be to run water and power out to the barn. I'm struggling with how to do the job in a cost-efficient manner but keep it future-proof. I am interested in suggestions on how to reduce cost & design this so I won't be kicking myself in the behind in a couple years when I have to upgrade or re-do something.

Water - I think I've got this figured out, I got a good deal on 1" 160psi black EP water line on clearance. I will connect to existing system at our well and run the line 4' underground. Plan to install a frost-free hydrant in the barn, and maybe one along the way to serve the garden area. I am considering buying more pipe to install a few more hydrants in areas I might need them while I have the trencher on site, one near the field and one near where I envision a fruit orchard.

Power - I'm struggling with the cost of wire here. I know how to do the voltage drop calculations to size the wire for a given load at that distance. If I say I might want as much as 50 amps 240v for welding at some point in the future, this requires #2 aluminum wire at a cost of about $1.50 a foot. Our immeadiate need is just for lighting and some water heaters & heat lamps for the chickens. I could do that on a 15A circuit which would only require 10ga copper wire, at a much reduced cost. But if I ever got more livestock which needed stock tank heaters I might be out of amps. Either way I intend to run the line underground in the same trench as the water, and install everything to code even though it won't be inspected.

So please let me know what you did and how it worked out... and help me learn from the experience of the board.

[diane]

We were really sorry we didn't run the better wire the first time around. I would encourage you to just suck it up and buy the better wire if staying there is what you intend to do for the long haul. Also remember that here in Michigan if you drive over any pipe in the winter you are going to drive that freeze down deep and it could freeze up. I love your idea of the various hydrants. I hate dragging hoses all over and certainly wish we had run one to the garden.

[fordy]

.....................Look into the cost of using # 6 cable with a sheath for direct burying into a ditch ! Should have 2 hots , a ground and a neutral . 350 feet is a fairly long run which will result in significant voltage drop IF you don't utilize the propersize cable for your electricial load in the barn . I'm sure someone on here has a table that shows the voltage loss per 100 foot of run for different sizes of wire . Won't be cheap . , fordy

[Beeman]

What is the affordability or possibility of a separate electrical service to the barn? That's the way many around here are done with another service and meter eliminating feeding off of your house panel. Is your meter on the house? Where is the pole that feeds the house? Any chance of putting the meter on the pole and feeding the house and barn?

[cfabe]

So how do you prevent having the lines freeze up under a drive? I will be running under an area that I drive a pickup through once or twice a week in the winter to bring in firewood.

[cfabe]

My meter is currently on the pole, a 200a panel that has a 150a subfeed for the house and a couple breakers for an outlet and pole light. I'd be running another subfeed off that panel to the barn.

I didn't investigate getting another service because the barn is about 600 feet off the road and I figured it would cost me more than the $500 the wire will cost. Plus I didn't want another power company easement coming on the property, and I'm already going to be trenching for the water line so I figured it'd be the best way to go.

[Razorback21]

Originally Posted by Beeman

What is the affordability or possibility of a separate electrical service to the barn? That's the way many around here are done with another service and meter eliminating feeding off of your house panel. Is your meter on the house? Where is the pole that feeds the house? Any chance of putting the meter on the pole and feeding the house and barn?

We ran a jumper box to our greenhouse and I am glad we did.

[Harry Chickpea]

You need to do some re-thinking, I fear. If you have a 200amp meter box and main breaker, that is the smallest allowed on new construction around here. I have about 300' of 4-0 aluminum running underground to my 400 amp panel. I planned in advance for expansion, and that was a significant cost.

Forget about trying to power a welder across that distance. It would be far cheaper to buy a welder that runs on gasoline or diesel, or to use an acetylene tank setup. Without a major overhaul, all you have available for power is enough for lights and a few small power tools and maybe a milkhouse heater. Them's the facts.

The water pipe is probably OK (you can tell by trying to bend it and see how easily it crimps) Hopefully, you got the thicker walled stuff and not the cheap stuff sold at Tractor Supply, which will collapse under any significant weight. If you run into rocks in the trenching, consider investing in some sand to surround the pipe before backfilling. You can run a power conduit and water pipe in the same trench, but note that I said conduit. You cannot avoid this expense if you want any safety at all. Wire that is not in conduit under a field where cattle other animals live, or where a tractor has to go, will eventually fail. It isn't wise or safe to skip the conduit for long runs, which are totally different than running a wire to a yard light.

[cfabe]

Harry, I'm not sure how you determined I don't have enough power for a welder. I've run it in the house garage many times without a problem. The distance to the barn is irrelevant as long as the wire is sized properly, right?. Whether I really want to spend the $$ for the large wire is the question. I can get by with much smaller wire if I just wire it for lights & small water heater.

The soil here is almost pure sand, I've dug 4 feet down before and hit very little in terms of rocks. Conduit is not in the budget, although I can appreciate the suggestions for it. Hopefully I won't be kicking myself for skipping that down the road. The power to the house is direct buried and has lasted 15 years so far.

The pipe I think is the "good" stuff. They had 100psi and 160psi rated pipe, I got the 160. It seems pretty thick wall.

The area I am running through is woods, with one road/trail to cross. How should I protect the wire & water line where they go under this road? Sleeve them in another larger piece of pipe?

[texican]

Earlier folks have it right... it's going to be difficult getting anything to work properly, at that distance, unless you use very large wire... I haven't done the calculation, but I don't think you'd get by with 2 gauge... maybe 00... no matter, you're going to spend a lot on wire.

Our local co-op will put new connections in for free, up to like 1200'. They could always extend the wire from your house the 350', set another pole and meter... only thing is they usually charge a minimum fee. Here, it's 7.50/month. At that price, it'd take a long time to equal out that several hundred (or thousand) it's gonna cost to string wire, and bonus: never have line problems.

Good luck... I'm in the exact same boat... wanting power at my barn and new home site, 320' away.......would love to just string some 10 gauge on the ground and have a temp setup... This spring I'm going to have to bite the bullet and get er done. oooppss.....it's spring here already... oh well!

[Witterbound]

I think you should talk to your power company. I'd bet they will run a line to your barn for free, as long as you pay for the meter loop. I've got separate service at my house and my barn. The only disadvantage is the extra easement, which doesn't bother me in the slightest, and the second bill I get each month as there are some charges that apply at each meter regardless of electric used. It also gets me a vapor light on the pole, which I like.

[cfabe]

I just looked up the cost for conduit and it's actually cheaper than I thought, it would only cost me a little over $100 to run a 2" conduit out there. If I did that I could run cheaper wire for now and have the ability to upgrade later. Maybe I will go that route.

[wvstuck]

Typically around here the power company will do a free set up. The customer has to pay for the stand pipe (or wire) to the top of the structure. The power company hooks to that. If I kill the main breaker I pay $7.00 a month for the hookup. My barn runs on a separate 200A service. All the power I want and need is right there.

As posted before... I would not run wire in the ground without conduit... You are asking for severe problems down the road.

[Lazy J]

We are in the process of doing the same thing.

We have the waterlines installed and are waiting for mother nature to get th dirt settled in the trenches.

We have a 150' run from the transformer/meter to our barn. We ran 2/0 copper in 2" conduit from the meter to the barn. The 2/0 is not cheap, but we should never have an amperage problem. We will run our small farm shop with the power including 220 welder and air compressor.

I'd suggest you get an elertrician out to your place for a consultation rather than relying on the suggestions I and others have. After all we don't get a lay of the land from the written word on an Internet Bulletin Board.

JIm

[Michael W. Smith]

Our barn is down below the house much as yours is (although it's probably only 150'.
When we originally moved there, there was already power to the barn via an electric pole across the road that ran down to the barn. However, any time there was a big ice storm or wind storm, nearby pine trees would bring the power line down. After the 2nd time or putting the line back up, that summer I ran electric underground from the house to the barn.

Since you are already going to be putting in a water line, go ahead and put the power line right beside. I would urge you to run conduit - I used 3" or 4" plastic pipe I had picked up cheap. With the conduit, if there is ever a problem in 2 years or 50 years, new electric line could be attached to the old and pulled out of the conduit. Same as with the water line - conduit will not only help prevent it from freezing or damage, but if the water line would ever need replaced, it's a simple matter of pulling out the old and pushing in the new. If you don't put conduit down, if anything needs replaced, you will be forced to dig up the old stuff or at the very least to run a whole new line.

DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME!

[Beeman]

Don't even think about running the wire without using conduit, and use the largest size possible. Had a friend just go through a problem with a line underground, Very recently installed and the contractor convinced him not to use conduit. Lost power on one leg and had to dig the wire up. Aluminum wire and it must have been kinked on the roll and burnt in 2 inside the insulation.

[o&itw]

Originally Posted by Harry Chickpea

You can run a power conduit and water pipe in the same trench, but note that I said conduit. You cannot avoid this expense if you want any safety at all. Wire that is not in conduit under a field where cattle other animals live, or where a tractor has to go, will eventually fail. It isn't wise or safe to skip the conduit for long runs, which are totally different than running a wire to a yard light.

Many of these things vary from state to state, county to county....In the area I used to live in it was illegal to run water and electricity in the same trench conduit or not......

Might be worth checking with your utility company (if you can catch a lineman around, it might be best to ask him first, he may be able to tell you a way to approach the company that will be of little or no expense for the work)
Utilities vary their rules too. Some will charge one their full cost for extending the service (extremely high) and others will do it within reason for free.

[Darren]

I've been running 200 psi for water and using the compression fittings instead of the inserts to connect runs. I've had to dig pipe up and replace inserts that have corroded. If you're going to run multiple hydrants off the same line at the same time you might need more flow. FWIW, IPS (iron pipe size) will be larger than an equivalent numerical size CTS (copper tube size). Larger diameter pipe will have less friction loss.

[rambler]

Originally Posted by cfabe

Power - I'm struggling with the cost of wire here. I know how to do the voltage drop calculations to size the wire for a given load at that distance. If I say I might want as much as 50 amps 240v for welding at some point in the future, this requires #2 aluminum wire at a cost of about $1.50 a foot. Our immeadiate need is just for lighting and some water heaters & heat lamps for the chickens. I could do that on a 15A circuit which would only require 10ga copper wire, at a much reduced cost. But if I ever got more livestock which needed stock tank heaters I might be out of amps. Either way I intend to run the line underground in the same trench as the water, and install everything to code even though it won't be inspected.

350 feet of #10 wire will only get you 10 amps that far out. Not doable.

#2 aluminum at 350 feet is about 35 amps.

Think you are unbersizing your wires.

Heat lamps, lights, and even a small water heater of 200watts - is well over a 15 amp curcuit. It's mostly all resistance loads so they will sorta work with a high voltage drop; but still not a good idea.

I used to run my entire farm - cattle, deep well, electric water heater, electric range, small shop with a welder etc - on a 60 amp service & under-sized wires so yes it is possible.

I'd just totally forget about the #10 wire tho, that is useless. That remote plug in is going to be seen as a wonderful resource over the years, to plug in all sorts of things over there.

You at least want 240v 40 amp out there for the things you are planning, and 60 would be much better.

Buy the wire one time, not 2x. Much cheaper to do it right now, than to have to redo it again in 5 years. That's a waste of money & time.

Local/ state codes are different, you may be allowed to put water & electric in the same trench; but typically the electric must be several feet above the water, _not_ side by side. Might want to check that.

Three-wire setups (no ground) are allowed for some ag buildings, but most require or are better with a 4-wire setup: ground/bare, neutral (this is _not_ the same as the ground), and the 2 hots for 240v. Hope you understand grounding if you do this yourself. It's easy to make it work; it is harder to make it right & safe.

--->Paul

[sammyd]

With aluminum wire running 240 V 60 Amps out 350 feet will require 2/0 wire with a 3% voltage drop. You could go a tad smaller and have 5% voltage drop.
I would go 60 amps at the smallest, ideally I would go for 100A and be ready for most eventualities.

1" plastic pipe is fine, I'd price 1 1/4" just for fun though.