Please help: house electrical wiring question

[ai731]

Hi,

Could someone who knows about household electrical wiring please reassure me that I won't electrocute myself or burn the house down - I know carpentry and DH is great at plumbing, but neither of us knows much about electrics, and DH doesn't get home from work for 4 hours...

We bought our homestead 4 months ago. When we moved in it had an alarm system. We don't need or use it, but haven't yet found a way to turn it completely off or gotten around to having someone come and de-install it.

It has a smoke detector built in, wired into the house electrical system in the ceiling. The ---- thing keeps going off. It's incredibly loud and it's driving me (and the dog and cats) nuts.

We have 3 other (battery) smoke detectors in the house, and a carbon monoxide detector, all of which I have just tested and they all work. None of them go off when the 'wired in' one goes off. I've walked around the whole house checking for smoke/heat and can't find anything, so I'm assuming that there's something wrong with the detector. I *need* to disconnect it so it stops going off.

I pulled it out of the ceiling enough to see the wiring. It has a black wire and a white wire, each of which are connected to wires in the ceiling with those little black screw-caps, and a yellow wire connected to nothing.

I found the right breaker in our breaker box to turn off the current to the smoke detector (it stopped sounding, and the light fixture next to it went off).

Here's my question: I assume it's now safe for me to unscrew the little black caps, and disconnect the smoke detector? Then what do I do? I assume I should screw the little black caps back onto the wires in the ceiling? Is there anything else I need to check or do before I turn the power back on?

I know it's a dumb question, but I'd feel a lot better if someone lets me know I'm doing the right thing. Thanks all!

Jan

[Chixarecute]

We have whole house wired in, and last fall one kept going off, even when I wasn't cooking!

What we discovered is that the units we have have a 5 year life, then the sensors start to go. Dh replaced the unit & its been fine since.

(sorry can't help with the electrical)

[Big Dave]

Ask ol country Boy RH he is an electrician. I have faith he will have all your answers.

[ai731]

Originally Posted by Chixarecute

We have whole house wired in, and last fall one kept going off, even when I wasn't cooking!

What we discovered is that the units we have have a 5 year life, then the sensors start to go. Dh replaced the unit & its been fine since.

(sorry can't help with the electrical)

Thanks! This reassures me at least that there isn't smoke somewhere in the house, and that it is probably the detector that's faulty. 5 years is about right, assuming the people we bought the house from got their system installed when they bought it...

Jan

[Ohiogal]

I'm not an electrician, but I have done some wiring work. This is what I'd do.
Stand on a non-metal ladder or chair to reach it, if needed. With the power turned off at the breaker box, remove the wire caps from both the white and black wires, one at a time, and disconnect the connecting wires to the smoke detector. Put the smoke detector carefully aside. You didn't mention a green wire/screw so I'm assuming the unconnected wire (yellow) is the ground wire. Leave that alone. If its not hooked up, it wasn't properly grounded anyway (another story for another time. )
Then put the wire caps back on the bare black wire end and the bare white wire end and use electrical tape on them to make sure they stay fastened to the wire ends. Tape one at a time and do NOT mix wires and caps. This will prevent a short circuit if one comes off. The last thing you want to do is touch white to black, or touch either of them to yourself while energized so you want them separated when you turn the power back on.
As long as the caps are on the bare ends and they are firmly taped to the wires there's a reduced risk of being shocked. If the detector is up where pets and children can't reach it, its OK to just leave the wire caps out with the wiring for the time being.
Otherwise push the capped and taped wires back into the box and put a cover over it, then its OK turn the power back on.
It would help you if you learn to swap out a simple single pole light switch. All you need to know about basic electricity is in that little task.
Good luck!

[cfabe]

Yes it's safe to disconnect the wires, recap them, then turn the power back on. You can also usually unplug the wires from the back of the smoke detector as well.

[ace admirer]

you know,,,,i kinda think giving electrical advise over the internet to people that know nothing about electricity is very risky.

electrical safety rules would say NO you are not safe, the circuit has not been tested with a meter. if you don,t know how to safety use and check the meter itself....it would never be safe for that person to do electrical work.

the electrical advise we give over the internet is probably going to get someone hurt or killed sooner or later. this stuff is dangerous, more people get killed in the usa by 120 volt circuits than any other voltage.

safety is based on layers of safety when we start removing layers "shortcuts" we are getting closer and closer to getting someone hurt.

so if you know how to safety use a meter and know how to check the meter itself, then you are on the road to safely working on your electrical system,,if not, then NO you are not safe.

or am i way off base here?

[rambler]

I kinda was thinking too, as I was reading, the person is _assuming_ the power is off when the breaker was thrown. That is probably right 99% of the time, but - a malfuntioning alarm could happen to go off again just about the time you throw the breaker. Or, you might have cut the power to the security system, but not to this alarm. Or....

So, while that is pretty much what I would do as described, it is a little risk to just go with the assumptions and forge ahead. Myself, I would consider options & what else I find as I go along. The original poster probably won't, not being familiar with electricity...

As well - the gold wire. Gold? That is not an off-the-shelf color for electrical wiring. Is it a control wire? I would not assume it is the ground, as someone else did - bare or green is what a ground is. Gold should mean something else. Perhaps up in the ceiling is the other side of the gold wire - it disconnected & that is the source of the failing detector? I donno, just thinking out loud. The gold wire is puzzling, and I don't presume to know what it is.

Sometimes these are special wired, low voltage units, and are running about 10-12 volts through the wires. Then a person can work on them live! But, who knows.

Working with electricity is a layered deal as you say, and there are a lot of layers we forget about when giving advise over the internet.


Not now, not today, but getting a $20 electrical tester & learning how to use it to test wires is a good idea. Altho it also gives people with not much experience a lot more confidence than maybe they should have. Like - figuring out the difference between a ground and a nuetral wire. But that is a different thing, nothing to do with this question.

To the original poster - I hope this worked out for you, it likely should have. Just be careful of the asumptions you made - none of us should be agreeing with those assumptions at face value.

--->Paul

[Tom in TN]

ai731,


Here's one other thing to consider. Most (but certainly not all) smoke detectors that are hard-wired into the electrical system have a built in battery back-up system so that they'll still work even if the electricity is turned off. If the battery goes weak, many of the smoke detectors will purposely sound the alarm to let you know that something is wrong.

Can you see a battery (usually 9 volt battery) when you open the cover on the smoke alarm? If so, you might try replacing the battery before you call an electrician to fix the problem.

Good luck,

Tom in TN

[Oldcountryboy]

Yep, your best bet would be to replace all the smoke detectors in your house with new ones. If the house has set empty for a long period there's a good chance the sensors have dust and cobwebs on them. Most modern smoke detectors have a pigtail on the back of them that you can just simply unplug. The trick would be to find the same brand of smoke detectors with the same type of pigtail adapter. But most all the new detectors come with a new pigtail to connect to your hardwire. Should be 3 wires on your pigtail. A black, a white, and either a red or yellow wire. The black is your hot, the white your return neutral, and the 3rd wire which is usually red is your interconnection conductor from smoke detector to smoke detector. This assures that if one smoke detector sounds off the others will too.

If your unsure of what your doing, please call a electrician.

[ai731]

Thanks everyone for your help.

I was safely able to disconnect the wired-in smoke detector and turn the power back on.

To Ohiogal: I have tried to learn the basics of home wiring a couple of times, my problem is that the book (or instructions for a light fixture or whatever) say "Connect the white wire to the white wire and the black wire to the black wire" when the wires I have coming out of the wall are brown and red, rather than white and black. This is partly because the last two houses I owned were over 100 years old and in different countries. Anyway, since this house is New (only 25 years old) and built to a modern code, so it's time to get a new book and try to learn it again! Thanks!

To rambler: You are absolutely right, I should get a meter and learn to use it.

To Tom: No battery backup in this unit. Thanks!

To CountryBoy: There was indeed a pigtail, but I couldn't actually *see* it until I had the unit in my hands. I wish I had known about the pigtail in the first place, as I would have simply unplugged the malfunctioning unit. The rest of the smoke detectors are not the same kind, and are checked & tested regularly, so I think they are fine. Thanks so much for your help!

[Savrens]

There is a simple fix.

If this is a whole house alarm system follow these instructions.

The previous owners would have terminated the monitoring contract but it would be prudent to phone the alarm company to verify. Their number usually is on the equipment somewhere.

You will find a cord from the alarm cabinet plugged into a wall outlet nearby. It could be a wall wart. Unplug this cord.

Then open the cabinet door. You will find a small battery (approx. 2.5 X4.0 X6.0 inches.) Disconnect the wires to the battery.

The system is now de-energized and will not sound.

No need to get into all the wiring and the sensors. The system will remain intact and can be hooked up again at any time. When and if you want to use the system it would be a good idea to have the battery checked. They do not last forever especially if disconnected.

[OkieDavid]

I would offer that for those who are inexperienced with electrical cicuits simply saying check it with a meter can cause its own frustrations and fears as the proper use of one involves exposing yourself to bare conductors. Those of us with electrical training know the circuit isn't dead until it's TESTED and confirmed dead but for the average homeowner an alternative to a standard meter is a device known in the trade as a "tic tester". This is a device slightly larger than a pencil that is completely insulated and can read through wires, walls, switch covers etc.. You can even stick it directly into a recepticle to test it. You simply place it next to the wire and if there is dangerous current present, the tip will light up and glow. These are available at most all home improvement stores and staff will readily show you how to operate. They DO NOT replace a good meter but they do work fantastic for verifying that the breaker de-energized the circuit BEFORE you have to expose yourself to any bare conductor.

Edit: Regarding the original post- Now that you have disabled the wires feeding the smoke detector, if you are uncomfortable with having the capped wires exposed you can replace the smoke detector to cover the hole. If you do so, please place a strip of black electrical tape over the detector to indicate it has been disabled until you can obtain a replacement or another cover to close up the hole.

David

[watcher]

Originally Posted by ai731

To Ohiogal: I have tried to learn the basics of home wiring a couple of times, my problem is that the book (or instructions for a light fixture or whatever) say "Connect the white wire to the white wire and the black wire to the black wire" when the wires I have coming out of the wall are brown and red, rather than white and black. This is partly because the last two houses I owned were over 100 years old and in different countries. Anyway, since this house is New (only 25 years old) and built to a modern code, so it's time to get a new book and try to learn it again! Thanks!

Its fairly simple. Look in your breaker box and see which color wire is connected to the breaker. That color would be the "black" wire for your system. Then if you want to put in a new outlet or whatever you connect your "black" wire to the correct spot.

I second, third even forth the suggestion to get a few testing tools. Even a cheap Wal Mart multimeter can be a lot of help and there are many inexpensive testers which can help a LOT.

BTW, when I work with electricity I throw the breaker, test the wires with a meter then before I touch them with my hands I touch them together. A breaker can fail leaving the wire hot. A meter can be set wrong or break. But there will always be a spark if there is current.